Well, that is true. I was accounting for support of average proficiency - the one that’d get a noble supporter every run in 4 man content.
I’m not sure I follow the question
Depand on how the dps meter is implemented. If its not only about a simple dps-counter divided by the amount of time the data was determined then it might work better than expected, e.g. including some kind of statistically logger.
Thats just wrong. DPS meters might help to analyze a fight to and help fixing missplays.
Its not about the players who jailing the raids, its the system that implements jails!
Why I have to find ppl in the exactly same situation as I am, to proceed to a raid, if someone got dc and never went back online again? Why I can’t start at any gate i want, e.g. G1? Ofc, there are no multiple rewards. I’ve encountered the jails many many times. Every time i wished to reset the raid, picking up some new ppl and start over again at the very beginning. To spend 20 minutes more playin G1+2 in Vykas twice is way more worth than getting jailed in G3 for hours and hours and hours …
Also the dudes who not fit some basic preparings for the raid might have a chance to complete them, b/c they will get gatekept in jail for ever. Restarting at G1 might give them the chance to improve their character, watching guides and/or finding a group which is able to compensate the players weakness.
Depands on your personal goals for a game. I understand what you mean. But at the other side, this sacrifying into the community is what fun defines. Sounds wierd but this is the definition of community.
I really enjoy the raids with our new players (internally). We explain, what they have to do. They try to do and maybe they fail. They ask question, we answer and giving some tips how to handle specific patterns and mechs. But to be honest - for this I need additional time beside my gold roster progress.
If I feel better than I reached some limit in a game than helping others to achieve this with me together, I should think about some single player games. If this isn’t enough for my ego I should think about some non game-related things … 
What you described is one of the main reason for toxiticity - the ego trip. Yes, I also want ME to have fun and I don’t really care about others. But at the end it’s an multi player game which requires some kind of copromisses.
Yep. Thanks to SG’s game design. Well, there is a tool that helps you finding other players. But unfortunately its curse and solution at the same time. If this tool wouldn’t exist you porpably joined some discord-communities with similar minded people to find raid groups. Way less problems with different expections, experience levels etc.
But the cheap tool, SG provides to us, let you instandly forget about the harder way of self organisation. This then leads to very different types of players within a same party. Well, this cannot work proper.
Funny idea: Streamers Challenge - Match Making Legion Raids. Propably only one successful raid in the time the streamer does a dozen normally. But at the end WAY more entertaining than stupid grind fest. Think about it …
Yes and no. You have to consider some more factors. How does the raid feel for you? If you get more confident, your dps should increase and incoming damage decrease. The number of appearances in the mvp screen should also increase - if you join a comparable lobby. You won’t get direct numbers, but there are some indicators we can use for others and for ourselves.
I wanny just add a little thingy … 
What if you hit every of your attacks and do well against the boss but don’t hit the time windows of max. dps support/synergies from the others?
… or didn’t get some environment buffs as others did. In this case even the mvp screen or the dps meter shows the right information. 
Then you put it like that it sounds crazy difficult. But in reality, it’s not that hard. Remember that your damage is never equally split amount all of your spells. It usually is focused on a couple of them. And if you land those during the patterns you recognise… well… you get your solid base damage.
I was talking about the class “median” and their damage sweet spots when in reality you actually cant pin point them 100%, not even for 80% in my opinion cause of said reasons i listed above.
But you are pretty thick headed while trying to justify your reasoning which is absolutly ok! Different opinions pretty much.
As i stated above in my opinion you are dodging more or less human error/playstyles by saying boss patterns are telegraphed and therefore you should “hit” things. WoW parses work cause bosses have the exact same patterns with tab targeting. You dont need to “hit” things where human error is involved and a random boss pattern. Agree to disagree will it be
Not on consistent dps classes! Talking from experience
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t mind running learning parties. In fact, I do learning valtan runs every now and then on my non-gold earning support and join hell raid progs if I’m free from my brel jails. However, it’s one thing in a lower level raid where people join and actually willing to listen/implement the tips you give them and completely different in high-end content. A lot of people who join end-game clears would refuse to admit that fault lies in them, like ever. Let alone listening to a tip from a random bozo. So it’s a natural desire to not deal with the such audience.
I was trying to explain that to another fella but failed. The “feeling” part is all good and nice until a certain point where it gets too imprecise. I run enough hell runs, and more often than not I appear on the MVP screen. However, since I’m not a gigachad I usually just get upright fighter. So how do I know if I’m getting closer to cruel fighter or not in between different runs?
I was talking about one specific player, playing one specific class. If you take median damage for all the similarly geared players using one class, then, yes, the difference will be waaaaay bigger.
I am just trying to argue that it’s not as hard as you’re making it up to be If you say “you have to land all your 8 skills 80% of the time” - it sounds unreasonable, true. But in reality, it translates to “you need to land your 2 big skills 80% of the time”, Which is considerably easier, wouldn’t you agree? And taking into account pattern telegraphs, you can wait a couple of seconds to see the pattern first and then reliably land these skills. It ain’t rocket science.
Fair enough, good day to you
Damage distribution depends on the class obviously, but I don’t think it goes beyond 4 skills in your typical meta build with the exception of GS/Deadeye.
I also play a consistent dps class.
It’s not really the right information then, is it? If you have to take into account differences between gear sets, amount of bad RNG, amount of time getting focused by the boss, your uptime without buffs, your uptime with buffs…I mean how do you take into account if your team threw Dark granades or not?
There’s so many variables, in my opinion it NEVER shows the right information.
But that’s just me. I’m sure if you’re using it for a prolonged period of time with the goal in mind of getting better that eventually you WILL get better. To claim otherwise would be moronic.
But I just think it’s possible to do so without it
I said multiple time that I don’t have anything against that being implemented. I just think people who are still making threads about adding it in-game after all the times it’s been shutdown and we were explained it’s not happening, it’s still bannable, I think you need to stop with those threads cuz they’re stealing the focus of much more important thins to change with the game.
That’s all.
I mean, dps meter should be an option at least the way LoL does it (shows the dmg dealt after the game is over), but if it isn’t, and it’s not gonna be, fine by me. Plenty of ways to control your progress.
If first time you do a raid knowing the mechanics you manage to pass the enrage timer, and the second time you do the raid you kill the boss before enraging, it’s a safe bet you did better (sure, your team did better, so that might or might not be true for you, too, but it’s a safe bet that it does mean your damage was also better)
Yes and no. Since Trixions also has moving target you don’t have to stick on that scarecrow. Well, you won’t get a real raid feeling there. But if yu need some challenge to test your dps/movement etc. there is a guy named Prokel waiting for you …
The one that dies from one major dps skill from my main? I can’t even test my stagger rotation on this thing coz it dies too fast.
Prokel practice is an amazing tool, I’m glad they finally fixed the issue with prokel hard. But it serves a different purpose
Same, good day for you too! Nice to have a convo without lashing out. Pretty rare thing on these forums
I cant blame anyone for using a DPS meter, because the game makes them to use it. No one wants to play with trash peoples, who can’t meet the req for the dps, or the dps checks. This is because the game is just too hard, like bro, just take a look at Vykas.
Even if one man fails the mechaninc everyone just wipes, and there you have it, you wasted 15 minutes from your life, someone going to RQ and that’s it, you got jailed. No wonder people going to use DPS meter and gatekeep the beginners or the bad players.
Or I don’t know if I can even call that too hard, it’s just straight up unreasonable, and dogshit. If I dont have to waste 5 hours to get into a party IN EUC, which is another problem, then I would come back today.
And I can’t talk about the other raids, because I don’t have any personal exp about that, but I can imagine how bad the situation is on a dead server with even harder miliseconds wipe mechanics 
You described the importance of experience to get better. I am totally fine with that. You pointed out, that a dps meter isn’t the solely way to achieve improvements. I agree. A dps meter doesn’t give you the experience - it only shows some numbers you have to interprete.
Fact is - dps meters affecting a community in a bad way by causing toxiticity. No matter if you want this or not. At some point you’ll get involved.
But maybe the implementation could bypass this a bit. We know games where dps meters are available. In these games the data is shared to all other players in the specific scope, e.g. raid group. In these games toxiticity is predetermined.
I for myself like the possibility to analyse combat data to improve me or others. Sadly in LA we don’t have such a tool. But what if a player could decide if he shares his data or not? Just an idea in general to think about.
I think this is a shitty argument against dps meters. Any other argument is better.
Why? Because people. Being toxic has nothing to do with dps. If someone wants to be toxic, they will always find a way.
I dont need a dps meter to see who just running around clueless and barely passing the mechanics, and its on my personality or mental state am i going to flame the guy or not.
Tldr, thats not a good argument against dps meter. For sure
It didn’t get better the closer you get to the latest content.
A dps meter wouldn’t show you how well the people performed the mechs. The data isn’t available befor the fight starts, so in case of gatekeeping it wouldn’t change anything?!
SG should reduce the stupid grind (daylies, weeklys) to free some time the community might spend on non gold earners. I think this is the crucial point. I want to get my weekly gold afap.
Beside the 18 Legion raids which lasting about 18 hours if it goes worse, there is a shit lot of other stuff to do to progress in the honing system. Here i didn’t mentioned about horizontal content many of us want to enjoy. How to handle this w/o becoming toxic in some way?
Yes and no. The situation became even worse after the stupid gold nerf. People who enjoyed Vykas normal b/c of the difficulty of the hard mode now flooding hard modes. No fun for them still failing at those things which lead them decide to prefer normal mode and not the others who just wanna get their homework done.
I had and have my problems to get into a raid. But at some point a get confident and the sun begins to shine. But the way is/was kinda hard. Many players have quitted the game for that reason. Others quit b/c of the toxic community and missing opportunities to improve theirselves.
Its not really an argument against dps meter. Its just a fact that dps meters causing toxiticity.
People don’t want to be toxic primarily but they become at least a bit. Toxiticity is not only about flaming, insulting and other harrasments. It is also about gatekeeping, not communicating, etc.
A dps meter wouldn’t change this. The problem is caused by the game design. Game deisgn not made for fun but for money. That’s all.
I can imagine how bad the situation is then right now
I can agree with that. If they did that at least in anyway. Make the boss easier, or just more reward so people don’t have to 6 alt every raid.
It’s not a fact, it’s in fact wrong. It’s the other way around - toxic players are more likely to be using a dps meter.
Do you wanna know how I can be sure about it? Because dps meter or not, most of the player base is toxic. People don’t F2 from guardiand raids and boss rushes because their dps meter said someone is slacking. They do it as soon as they see they were matched with 2 supports, noobs or someone didn’t throw a phero.
It’s exactly like blaming guns for killing people. Guns don’t kill people. People kill people. WIth guns.
ehm… I’m a bit confused here.
So you’re saying
And then refute it with
And I agree with your last statement. DPS meter is not a problem, the current game design is.
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