Current and Future State of Lost Ark PvP

Loads of great additional feedback in the posts since I posted. There is so many great ways they could potentially take PvP if they wanted to capitalize on the western interest in it. I know I for one would be fine if maybe they don’t use my ideas but are doing something vs doing nothing.

Try different modes, ladders, promote things AGS…if you continually try things and use player feedback and interaction to adjust over time that will be 100% a healthier PvP scene then something that feels half done and neglected which is what this current system feels like with the bad Match Making only 1 ladder etc.

Agreed but i cant even get in games. I’ve posted asking for help countless times only to hear crickets

Matchmaking failed over and over and over and over again. The fact that you receive penalties even if you cancel a queue properly and then fast travel or switch characters is also just stupid.

Really well thought out criticism and I share pretty much all of these sentiments.

Hope this gets some visibility and the Dev team takes a look at it.

are you aware pvp is a meme on this game here and kr, until delusional “pro” players realize their class is broken as fuck and until they dont balance the game pvp will be a big meme. 3 Years now and its still broken braindead classes on top of every leaderboard. You just cant take it seriously. One of the worst balanced games out there for pvp.

Sad when people defend the class they play claiming its not op but they are unable to play other stuff. And they keep defending clases dominating top 20 leaderboards claiming they are just noob stompers but they are “trash at high lvl” xDDD this people is why pvp is a joke and only 1% of the playerbase cares

So you’re GM on all said broken braindead classes right? Probably not you’re just bitter because you want someone else to blame for your lack of ability.

Lost ark PvP may not be in the forefront of their thinking as far as the asian release especially went. There is clearly however an appetite for it in the West and they can support it without massive overhauls to the game to be completely honest.

I don’t think you understand the impact of new queues and tighter matchmaking (literally contradictory goals); framing it as something where you sacrifice a couple extra minutes per queue and end up with essentially perfectly balanced matches. That simply isn’t how it works out in reality, and that goes doubly for ranked queues. Adding new ranked queues is always an incredibly slippery slope because it fractures the playerbase and degrades the quality of all queues until one becomes the defacto only queue anyhow, because player tolerance for low quality games in ranked systems is not high. Even a game like League, with probably 10x or more the number of ranked players, has seen the impact of this. Dynamic queue has always been a shitshow because there isn’t enough of a playerbase to ensure reasonable queue times and quality games, and because the games are of lower quality it isn’t taken as seriously as a ranked mode and all the issues feed into one another and spin out of control. I am all for the matchmaking wait time being raised to five minutes, but I do not think it’s going to have the impact you think it will. All those really poorly made matches provide an incredible amount of pressure relief on the system, and if you force only matches within even tighter perimeters (especially with like requiring one support per team) the queue times will absolutely skyrocket. The premade queues, though, I think shouldn’t be put in. Or I should say, you can’t balance the game around both soloQ and premades, and the game doesn’t have a large enough PvP population to support both. I don’t personally care which one it is but the devs should pick one and stick with it, and since soloQ is already in that just feels like the choice they would go with. What the PvP in this game actually needs is two-fold: the aesthetic ranking system needs to be made less elitist and the mechanics and UI need to be clearer.

With regards to the aesthetic ranks, having like 80-90% of your players be “bronze” is so crazily dumb, and I don’t know what the other ranking systems are like in Korea (though I hear their version of LA no longer uses this system so I imagine this isn’t a common standard or anything), but in the West it’s almost like gaslighting the players. The specific brackets change but we heavily associate bronze with being bad, silver with being ok, gold with being decent, and then everything above that being various degrees of good. Overwatch is more normalized with gold being the middle of the bell curve, and League is less normalized with silver being the middle of the bell curve, but they’re in the same general ball park. I don’t know exactly what the percentages are since they made the 100 MMR bump last month but before that it was like 88-90% of players in bronze, meaning that being in silver would be the equivalent of being plat in League.

This is bad for a lot of reasons. Obviously it’s highly discouraging for players to be branded with a rank that they see as essentially a mark of shame, especially for players who aren’t… actually bronze. Someone who is ok a video games and usually hovers around mid silver to low gold is going to feel a lot of dissonance when they see that in Lost Ark they’re at like 1230-1300 MMR and deep in bronze territory. It’s going to feel bad, and they’re going to feel even worse when they’re struggling to improve and even breaking barely into silver is 200 MMR off. Except they shouldn’t feel bad: they’re playing just as well as ever and to break into silver here would mean they’d have to be better at Lost Ark than they were at any other game they’ve played. And then for people who are actually bronze, skill-wise – even if they’re ok with that as a starting point because it reflects their perception of their own skill – it’s going to feel really bad when they get so little visual feedback on their journey to being better. There is going to be a wild difference in skill between someone who is 1100 and someone who is 1400 MMR, but they’re both bronze and they both get precisely the same end-of-season rewards.

In a more general sense having the system skewed as it is is poor design because it doesn’t achieve its ostensible goal of marking off different skill levels. In any game there are significant differences between the 30th percentile and the 50th, and the 70th after that. Treating them all the same is simply incorrect. Moreover, especially in a system that is percentage-based, it’s even worse because there must always be a worst player. If you removed everyone under diamond from the system and forced everyone above diamond to play a new round of placements, the worst current diamond player would be the new bronze 250 MMR player. The more niche a game becomes the less reflective the aesthetic rankings become of meaningful skill levels, and starting it off already incredibly elitist exacerbates this issue. It hurts no one to give the “bad” players their own series of ranks to progress through with their own rewards, since the ranks above them still exist and still give better and more prestigious awards.

Next, the game just needs to be more clearly laid out, period. The tiered CC and CC immunity system makes for compelling gameplay, but it simply isn’t explained well. The localization here needs to be absolute peak priority and the game in general needs a tutorial added that explains and teaches the PvP mecahnics and UI elements at least a little bit. The PvP in LA is already incredibly punishing to new players and that shouldn’t be made even worse because of a poor UX experience. There needs to be like icons associated with each stagger tier, and each immunity CC tier, and every ability needs to be labeled with them. Then the classes need to be much easier to pick out at a glance from the name cards. This is a smaller thing but again, more clarity please. A lot of the icons are samey and none are color coded.

To sum up, I would move the aesthetic ranking system more left along the bell curve to match a system like League’s at least, in addition to (or at least) giving players their percentile standing in addition to their absolute standing (not knowing how many players are on the ladderboard total makes an absolute standing kind of meaningless), and I would make the UX much better and clearer in addition to adding a set of PvP tutorials. If you do these things the game will still be fairly arcane to get into, but it will drive away far fewer players.

Edit: I would also add in one final thing in the form of class-specific MMRs. There’s only so much you can learn from doing normals before further development requires you move to ranked, but there’s also a large gap between that point and wherever you are on your main in all likelihood. This leaves new classes you’re learning in a kind of limbo where you have to tank your peak rating and troll games to get better training on them, or just never truly bring them up to speed. The primary downside would be that it would inflate the ladder numbers but I don’t think that’s a huge deal overall. You could also have a class you didn’t care about and troll games, which I would see as a legitimate argument against it, but I also personally would take that over being forced to unintentionally troll games by playing a class you aren’t good enough on at your main’s Elo.

Edit2: Can’t believe I forgot to mention this but another wacky and awful consequence of the ranking distributions is that the system starts you off at 1500, except that’s not the middle of the bell curve. 1500 and silver actually being reasonably high up the ladder means that not only are 80% of players going to end up in bronze, but 95% of that group is going to go on a pretty sizeable losing spree to start off their ranked experience after having been dropped into 1500 MMR games. This feels bad for the new players and also feels bad for the people actually supposed to be in that Elo range randomly getting someone that doesn’t belong there and is on their way down. This is going to happen no matter where they’re put, but starting them in the top 20% of the ladder means 80% of players are going to start off out of their depth, versus starting them off at the 50th percentile meaning it’s at least a coin flip instead of overwhelmingly the case. It also means the players out of their depth are way out of their depth. A 50th percentile player being dropped into an 80th percentile game is a much larger gap than a 40th percentile player being dropped into a 50th percentile game.

The PvP in this game has no future. It’s dead on arrival because everyone thinks having supposed noob stomper classes is okay. It’s not. Artillerist and Deathblade would be fine dealing half the damage they do now because of all the utility in their kit, yet they’re allowed all that plus being the top damage classes. Paladin and Bard destroy any hope for fun in the game and getting double support on enemy team is instant loss. It’s a piece of shit and everyone knows, too late to fix.

Your reasonings for this being dead on arrival just don’t line up with reality as to what makes or breaks a game long term in PvP. There is plenty of games with step learning curves where new players tend to struggle that have been wildly successful.

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This isn’t a steep learning curve, this is bad game design on a game that’s supposedly been out and been balanced for the last 3 years. They’re not new to this and it’s still this bad, what makes you think things will change? Face it man, there’s not even any replies from the devs like roxx on any arena posts, they don’t give a shit about PvP and never will.

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KR wasn’t really into PvP, RU didn’t have forums, we are in reality the first community to really push for PvP and PvP improvements on the scale we are pushing it (I know there is obviously some community members who pushed ideas for RU).

They already did a balance pass addressing the strength of Supports in PvP so they are obviously already starting to do a lot more than they did previously for KR/RU likely because the Western community is pushing PvP fairly hard.

If nothing of substance were to come after this patch for months I’ll believe you but will see.

Sweet… so in other words… we passed the buck along, and still nothing has change… so GL with that! lol

Personally I’m glad the PvP isn’t popular
Reaching top 200 is actually realistic. I want to flex after the season is over on PvE kiddies with my shiny mount

There’s literally tournaments for money lmfao

Nah
There’s a steep learning curve
All classes are represented in the top 200 worldwide
So any really struggle is a l2p issue

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pvp in this game is basically not taken seriosly. And the reason for this is because smilegate has shown that outside of very MINOR changes, they do not balance, and have not balanced pvp. The matchmaking is so awful, that them going years without changing it in KR just goes to show pvp isn’t important. No pvp game I have ever played will match a diamond/master rank player with a bronze. None. Not a single game, besides this one that is. Add in to the horrible class balance which exists, and you have a game mode no one cares about.

And its sad, because if smilegate actually tried to balance pvp more ppl might play it.

Then you never played a pvp game with low population . Every single game does that if the population is low and it has soloQ, if the matchmaking cannot find enough players from same rank, then it try to make teams with players from different ranks, but it tries to match the average team rating. It is the same in GW2 for example, same in ff14 pvp

What is so “horrible” about the balance? Could you elaborate?

I think PvP improvements are in the roadmap but unfortunately it may be too late.

In terms of ranked, MMR is terrible. This should be the #1 thing addressed instead of balance. Points gained/lost per match is pretty static… this should be dynamic according to the players you win/lose against.

Season length is also ridiculous. The rewards are great but why are seasons 6 months in length? They would retain more player interest if seasons were shorter. They’d also be able to gather more data for future patches.

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Bruh there are more than 15 classes in this game, if you think about it you will realise that balancing 15 classes whom all have different identities, more than 10 viable pvp abilities each with dozens of tripod combinations + 1000 points in stats is very difficult thing to do. And i must say that for me a master striker the game feels rather balanced. You should understand that the skill capacity that the game provides is huge, there is alot of room for a player to grow his skills, even if you are very good unless you play 100% concetrated on the PvP you wont win, its hardcore so its not for anyone and thats why people keep hating on it, they expect that when they see casual PvE grinding to have the same with PvP which in fact is 100% opposite. The PvP in this game is not for weak minded people that dont want to grow or for casual people.

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In my last few PVP coop battles, Gunlancer with 150,000 hit points, when I use a skill on the other team players a large majority says immune due to the anti stun-lock shield, but they can keep me airborne for my entire 150,000 hit points bar and interrupt all my instant abilites. If anyone can explain how this is possible I would greatly appreciate it, gunlancer is the heaviest class yet thrown around like a rag doll.

More modes for competitive is a must, at minimum you need both solo and premade 3v3 Team Deathmatch…

This one statement shows how shortsighted and flimsy your reasoning is. Do you know what’s likely the number 1 why they did not create premade 3v3 competitive? Because it would create a whole new dimension to class balance that they’d have to juggle along with all the other work they have to do. It would create hundreds more threads (regardless of their merit) of balancing suggestions, crying and moaning and finger-pointing about 3-member comp balance that would just add chaos to what is already a relatively palatable competitive PvP scene. So, NO don’t fix what’s not broken, unless you’re ready to overhaul it all.

“Players of wildly different MMRS should not be put together, no 2 support teams, 1 has none”

Naivete at its finest. The MMR isn’t about being fair. It’s a system to MATCH YOU with WHAT’S AVAILABLE and then ADJUST ACCORDINGLY. You don’t like being matched up in a wider spectrum of MMRs? Then don’t play at low population times. No one’s forcing you to play at any given hour.

You’re making up your own red lines of what’s “wrong” with the system and what should and should not be allowed in competitive. You have no idea how their matchmaking system works and it’s got way more parameters than just a single number being matched to someone else’s number. I’ve had plenty of fun matches with one-dimensional teams. Are you saying teams have to be “well-rounded” to be “competitive”? Or are you just being closed-minded because you refuse any effort to make a winning strategy with an unorthodox comp?

And do you really think that having “rounded” comps and tight MMR matching is going to prevent players from having a bad pvp match? People will have bad experiences regardless and no algorithm can prevent that. If anything your idea will only make for BLAND experiences. It’s all wishful, ball-clutching thinking.