Feedback/Discussion regarding third party Software in general

Im a dev from Germany and i want to open a discussion about the general view about third party software.

My target here is that i want to open a discussion about the general acceptance state of third party software,
it seams that ASG/SG have a overly strict stance against third party tools and i want to know why?

Most of us want to develop tools to enhance and improve the player experience and provide useful resources, its the same for the DPS meter, the intent is good, but i can somewhat see the negatives being enough to consider a prhobition even though i think its unreasonable.

But then would there be a possibility to add the same API the korean server has(used by loawa and so on), it would allow development of genuine helpful tools for character development and game insights.

A option would be a approach similar how Riot Games does it where you can access the api very rate limited for testing and then to publish tools you need to go through a verification process,
im aware that requires resources but maybe ASG could use existing AWS infrastructure easing the cost/time investment?

There are always negatives about doing such things, but in my honest opinion i do firmly believe that the positives that can come out of such a api, or just tolerating third party tools outweigh the negatives by a lot.

Cheers Liz3

P.S. the valtan update was sick, good work on that ASG/SG

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It isn’t unreasonable or hard to see why 3rd party software, which works with the game files, is frowned upon in most development industries, not only gaming.

Security is the simplest reason. Even if you are simply outputting logs, tampering with these info in real time can also be used to bypass the software securityt if any flaw was overlooked (let’s say a backdoor, tiny chance) through the development and you would not need to deal with this if you simply forbid the usage.

Auditing software as you mention takes time from the developers themselves and it looks like they are already swamped with stuff. That’s time from those who understand the game code would need to invest in order to give an ok to this. Is also a simple reason why many companies will not waste resources on this.

Game’s vision is also part of this. There are many different ideas that are used to conceive a game. Many of these, the designers get affectionate with (Meaning as something they love the concept) and will love to keep it as pure as possible. Let’s say “Immersion”.

Have you ever played GTA 5 without the radar on? It’s a completely new experience that forces you to learn the street names, makes you remember your paths, the events that happen through the game in order to get a sense of direction. It REALLY feels like a whole different thing.

Yes, the radar is for ease orientation in the game and is optional. But if you loved the idea of having that new experience and wanted to create a new game with it in mind, who are we to change the designers’s vision of the game?

Games are also born out of passion and love for the industry. Many also wish to have its users go through some experiences they went through and loved. Of course it can flop and other users can come and mod it but if the original designers think this go against their wish for how someone should experience the game and decide to ban those 3rd party softwares, there’s barely we can do but either go against their wishes and risk further complications or just play as they want us to.

I personally am neutral about 3rd parties unless they give ANY little chance for toxicity to spark or give advantages to others. But this is just my thoughts related to your comment on you seeing a studio prohibiting 3rd party as unreasonable.

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My post was not about direct game modifications but rather a external api, which goes along with the game rather then integrating in the game.
Security of a user is not related to that, what you are refering too are live client data and here Riot games is a good example too! They actually allow you to connect to their “LCU”(Game client) for info, but that wasnt my point. From a technical point security is important yes, but from a malicious developer point although thats there anyways, you need the protection anyways against peoople who have bad intentions, but remember im referring to majority of devs who do not attempt malicious things and do not break the immersion noticably.

Also Riot does not review your CODE they only review the application.
Further remember Korea already has a API which my post was about.

Oh no, I get you.

I’m talking about this part of the post that mentions the prohibition seems unreasonable to you

External apis would need them to have endpoints up, I think there’s some of those that are used on the market API and I think it depends on what are they up to open up.

Also didn’t meant they would go through your code but you need people to understand the game’s code to get what is your API getting into in case it isn’t public domain.

The thing with the DPS meter was it was indeed getting into the game files to grab the data

External apis would need them to have endpoints up, I think there’s some of those that are used on the market API and I think it depends on what are they up to open up.

Correct

Also didn’t meant they would go through your code but you need people to understand the game’s code to get what is your API getting into in case it isn’t public domain.

The API would be public domain, its only for retrieving infomation, you cannot alter, anything even though that would be cool thats not something i expect.

A good use case example is my guild, i have a discord bot which manages raid groups and info but it requires user data, if it had a api it could do that automated.

The thing with the DPS meter was it was indeed getting into the game files to grab the data

Thats actually not technically correct, the “dps meter” we mean did NOT interact with the game in any way, but what it did was Provide Information not optainable otherwise
Using functions from the Operating system is not related to the game. But this is out of scope of what my goal is. I should maybe take the DPS meter part out of my post completely.

The DPS meter “addon” simply uses a third party driver to capture network traffic and abusing the fact the incoming network traffic is not encrypted. In reality you are violating the TOS because you reversed engineered something.

Basic rule on this is “Never trust the user”. You could make an API that uses their endpoints but users could use it and have further options on their apps which might seem to use the API when it reality it does not.

If you had an API to grab user data… RMT sellers could grab your info from it and continue the mail spam. There’s a lot of thought on what could be given or not.

Providing information not available otherwise would as minimum require decrypting the files where this is stored IF is even stored. How else would you get this data without interacting with the game? Or are we assuming the log files are just public domain and we could decrypt these and use what’s stored there because it is just information from the game the devs decided not to display?

Lets stop the DPS meter talk, its not my goal.

If you had an API to grab user data… RMT sellers could grab your info from it and continue the mail spam. There’s a lot of thought on what could be given or not.

Thats what Rate limits are for! They limit a keyed access to a endpoint so you cannot spam unless verified and when discovered the key can be suspended.

Verified statuses are tricky.

There’s plenty of ways that people can get around those to get those validations pass as we can easily see with steam trusted status.

You would also need to consider how much would be a data request need to be limited to because people would jump right in for a discord bot that can provide you and there are many servers with a good chunk of users who would be querying that could have the bot be marked as a false positive.

There is also the need to also get user’s consent because, as an example of a “Character Data API”, there will be many people who would not be happy seeing their toons info displayed on places different from in game. It could also be used to filter who you want or not in your parties even outside the game and it could be negative. That would be something very important to make users aware of.

There are benefits indeed and info that if was provided, could be used for wonderful things (The market API is a beauty) but there is also a lot of thought and concern on what you really should make public. Unless is a partnered private add-on where they could just do whatever without fear of how it could be used

French here !

One thing that DPS meters do very well is aggregate class data and provight insight.

No one cares about parsing in this game – it doesn’t suit itself to parses anyways because it is action combat not GCD based.

However we’ve seen from Korean forums that although Smilegate says to have “internal” metrics about class performance, so often they are flat out wrong or outdated, to the point where famous streamers have to delete their characters live on stream to get them to re-evaluate a clearly out-of-touch balance decision.

Crowdsourced data actually lets players give more valuable feedback, log review allows you to catch unintended synergies between buffs working/not working rather than going by “feel”. Being able to tell through raw aggregate stats how a class in general is working is a very powerful thing.

+1 for LoA actually implementing some API / developer friendly tools

People might hate my take but, It’s quite simple.

The people that hate / don’t want dps meters, are people that suck at the game and don’t want to be called out for sucking and wasting peoples time.

There is MUCH more benefits to having a DPS meter, than there is con’s
one of the con’s being “Toxicity”

well? Don’t suck at no one gonna be toxic to you.

I mostly am VERY interested in, Counters/ Weak point damage / Stagger / and the amount of time that people are on the floor because they cant do mechanics, anyone with a brain should be able to tell that someone with 333 and a field boss card set, is NOT going to do the same damage as a 33331 light of salvation level 10 gem Kraken player.

Now PARSING on the other hand, is a root of toxicity where you amtch a players skill to the color of their parse, A lot of people don’t actually know parsing generally is cheesable and a “practice makes perfect” thing.

Lost ark is too RNG for there to be a “Parsing leaderboard” but having basic information for learning purposes, like buff uptime, back attack/ front attack %, weak point damage, counters, stagger. Can not only help improve players gameplay, but also help people be more aware in the first place. Its crazy to say this but some people GENUINELY do not know what weak point is, nor when to use nades , they dont know what “destruction” means. Quite frankly majority of these people NEED to be called out.

Another Pro, NA/EU are min/maxing sweatlords lets be real. People are going to want to do “speed runs” especially with hellmode, being able to analyze on paper for stacking buffs and such is going to be wanted. Right now its “smack buttons on cooldown in pristine uptime moment” ask 100 supports who actually tries to stakc their damage buffs when people are actually using abilities in those moments, or are they smacking buffs off gcd with their full swiftness spec, buffing auto attacks? And randomly getting a buff to line up with some skills.

Personally speaking, with my team I will let party know ahead of time “yo 15 seconds Ill have full buffs up + dark Grenade, get ready to nuke” and I macro a message to my ping that lets them know, they got the juice. This is so they KNOW to hold off before they waste my buffs on auto attacks. (I am full spec paladin, for this reason specifically) It makes it more fun and engaging to actually line things up as a team.

Logs is a very good thing for a team PvE game for analytical purposes, Yes people will be toxic, but thats a sour bunch.

P,S Im already toxic to the whales at 1490 that are on the floor for the whole fight.

P.S.S SG/AGS let alone people should be more concerned about the rampant Botting problem and RMT, rather than a analytical DPS meter, that every relevant game has.

This basically.
The only reason someone wouldn’t want to have a meter, is because they know they’re bad and they hope nobody will catch on.
With a meter, that’s not possible because it says right there “lmao u suck”

Hello Liz3, since your thread is in English, I’m moving it from the French “Discussion Générale” section to the English “General Discussion” section.

ty mb

Correct, this is also the intent i would follow.

But AGAIN my primary goal wasnt even a live api for such things, but rather a generalised RestFUL api to do stuff like discord integrations, character build checkers/help, online profile sites, market analyzers, you name it.
And the main argument is that these improve the game more then they would introduce harm.

Live game info would be cool too but they are directly integrated to the game rather then external tools which are going along the game.

The sole fact i added(now deleted) part about the dps meter was the fact smilegates targeted the Developers which didnt do anything wrong and do not deserve any punishment.

And lastly its to know why theres such a stance against tools aiming to ultimately impoving your game experience.
It baffles me anyways devs can even take a stance on this.

Its a entertaiment medium in the end and everyone should be allowed to experience it the way they want, unless they attack or “harm” another person or actually gain a TRURLY unfair advantage, you dont gain a direct advantage from a bigger stream of information, a dps meter wont let you clear valtan faster.

If you think about it, its like if i where reading a book and the author would say: you cant take notes or read the book not exactly from front to back because its not what i wanted, see how silly that sounds? thats EXACTLY whats happening here.

Third party tools are awesome things unless used maliciously or for a real unfair advantage.