Grudge vs Disrespect vs Hitmaster. The truth

General Discussion General Discussion
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So yeah I heard a lot of people going crazy grudge fear and stuff like this.

You know technically grudge is usually better than any other engraving (exepct maybe class engravings). But it also come at much higher price and yeah, is it worth it ?

The answer is : usually yes. So the first you gotta know is if Grudge should be your 3rd BiS engraving (or 2nd or 1st) or only your 4th. There are builds that have Grudge as a their 4th engraving because they do shenanigans with Class engravings or just scale much better with conditional engravings.

For example, Reflux (casting version) or the sorceres, it needs both Precise Dagger and All-out.

  • Dagger for the crit, yes even at 80% crit Grudge barely enter the comparison when you have like 450% crit damage so imagine if lower than 80%.
  • All-out technically is worst than Grudge. Well you surely get a little more value because you cast faster but it’s worst in dummie since it only affect 75% of your damage. BUT You still take All-out first because the increase cast speed is what make the difference between casting a doomsday or having to wait with it off-cooldown, and actually it’s better as soon as you win a single cast you know because of it.

So yeah there are some build that take Grudge as 4th engraving but usually it’s as 3rd so let’s get in :

Grudge vs Hit master/etc.
So Grudge is just straight up better than Hit master. There no other reason in earth you’d take Hit master insteed of Grudge other than because it’s much cheaper. And usually, actually, it’s not even true or not significant enough compare to pheons, you know. So Yeah Grudge > Hit Master. Period.

Grudge vs Disrespect.
Here is one that can be better if not much better than Grudge. You gonna say “heyo, Disrespect is that execute thingy and like I did the maths and like it’s 12% and like it’s even worst than Hit master what are you talking about ???”
Yeah but it’s 36% damage increase under a specific condition which is better than Grudge, right ? So now let’s assume that there is a boss and he has 100 Trillions HP and the thing is that when he reach 30% of his life, he gets an armor shield tha reduce damage taken by 80%, see ? So now :

  • Basically you spend a certain of time removing 70T hp and then you virtually need to remove 150T hp right. So total number HP is 220T not 100T. Yeah and guess what (150/220)*1.36+(70/220) is much higher than 1.2, so yeah it that situation Disrespect is better, right ?
  • Another example. Boss have some HP, doesn’t matter but at some point he do a mechanics that force you to drop him down low enough so you don’t die. If that moment happens when boss have less than 30% hp, AND if Grudge is not enough damage for you to meet that DPS check, then you’re fucked you gotta play with Disrespect and yeah it takes more time because overall less damage, but you have no choice.
  • Basically, if people with you die toward the end of an encounter, it might be better to play Disrespect than Grudge because it’s the same thing : You have a higher uptime of Disrespect and it might end up better that Grudge, mathematically. It’s usually not, but at least it gets much closer. (Not to mention that you also take less damage which can be actually relevant at this point, depending on the encounter.)

So see, like It’s really different than Hit master. The comparison must include this. Hit master will be no help for you, compare to Grudge, in these situations. But Disrespect will. As for my personnal opinions I think Grudge is better and at some point if the issue is overall DPS output toward the entiere duration of the encounter then you just Grudge and that’s it ! Also Disrespect is much less expansive to build to 3/3/3/3 and obviously better than 3/3/3/1 including Grudge, while still being straight up better in some case that you may encounter more than you think. Like I do Argos phase1 in matchmaking with pepegas and I need to carry theim because they basically all die before 30% and yeah I’m alone at the end. Velganos phase 3 is only what matter, and you can cheese Albion as well if you stagger and burst before he do mechanics such that he transition into phase 3 later, and yeah you’re mostly likely the only alive at this point. So yeah give execute its proper due as a niche value.

Disrespect vs Hit Master

Well all the above apply here, it’s the same. So if Grudge is your 3rd Engraving, then everything above applies except that the raw difference in dummy dps between both is halved. So yeah, nothing to say.

For me the only reason take something else than Grudge, is because you are forced too for any reason. Or if you want to save money just consider Discrespect especially since it’s 10 time cheaper than Hit master for example.

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At least explain why its better.

Cause the only difference between them is that grudge gives a higher %, aside from that they are exactly the same. You take 20% extra damage for 4% extra compared to hit master.

Both have pretty much 100% uptime since those using hit master are expected to not have back / front attacks, too.

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Hit Master does not affect awakening skills,
Hit Master is 16% increase to ability damage, not overall dmg 20 %
It’s not the same thing.

The only thing comparable to hit master is cursed doll.

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is this a t2 thing? cause at 1370 it is very easy to get 4 engravings thus this argument is unneeded, if anything you should be asking why would i even use hit master or disrespect atll unless im at the endgame since cursed doll better than both in all scenerios. class/grudge/cursed should be your 3 for dps for 90% of classes ofc the example above is correct, precise dagger beating them etc, but not every class has that and with 4 engravings you do whatever you want, even take hit master/disrespect to save money as the 4% or more dps drop is minor at this currrent endgame. i know my sorc currently using reflux/precise dagger/grudge/hit master and that’s cause hit master is what i hit on my jewelry and that’s that, switching is stupid without relic accessories.

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This is true, i agree. Tho its not as much of a big deal if you are still deciding wether tho use grudge or hit master. This implies that you are not very far into progression and thus that extra awakening damage won’t change much, while taking 20% more damage will. Once you have 4 engravings its pretty much guaranteed that you’ll be using both anyways

This is completely wrong, both do the exact same type of damage increase. Bear in mind that retarded translations make it seem like they do different stuff, and i don’t blame you for being misled.

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Agreed I would argue hit master is better than grudge or atleast on par because its almost the same damage increase with zero drawback

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Here is a simple rule of thumb why hitmaster is sometimes better than grudge:

If your in an encounter and look at your hp bar/bottles left, to deceide the next actions youre going to make, thats when hitmaster outperforms grudge. Because at this moment the type of engraving you have, will dictate your actions.
If the encounter is just farm, grudge is better.

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No you definitely ignore how Disrespect can actually scale when the situation is favorable for it. Like it’s nothing comparable to anything else than Grudge at this point because it’s flat multiplier. If you are alone fighting a dummy with constant steam of damage it’s like 11% increase when Grudge is 20%.

But as I explained, it quickly escalate when things aren’t go like a “dummy fight with constant steam of damage”, just like the number of Doomsday cast that benefit from it. If for some reason it’s not 3 out of 10 but 4 out of 10 it immediately bump to 15% etc… Grudge is definitely better most of the time tho. But for gearing alts ? Hell yeah I prefer going for Disrespect/Grudge or Disrespect/Precise stones that are 100 time cheaper than any combination of Grudge/Allout/Precise/Hitmaster. Plus Disrespect is clutch, perfect for alts going through matcmaking crazy raid full of pepegas.

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Imagine that for some reason you spend half the phase below 30% or close to and you can actually fit 2 out of your 3 awakening into Disrespect buff. Yeah it is adding up on top of stuff that are adding up on top of…

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Also keep in mind not all classes can take hit master so the only other options they have for % damage increase is probably raid captain and grudge. Raid captain is also gated by movement speed boost, so grudge is the most generic %damage increase

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Yeah, I’m not denying it. I’m only pointing the fact that all other engraving (apart from Disrespect/Grudge) doesn’t actually give flat % damage increase to foe (i.e. including Awakening) and that any other option are straight up worst than Grudge. There is no situation where you take Hit master insteed of Grudge, unless like insane unavoidable damage that you need to sustain and you can’t make it with Grudge… But it’s not how they design boss encounter in Lost Ark, never will.

However there are concrete situation where Disrespect is better than Grudge, flat out.

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There is also a huge difference between multiplicative engravings and additiv engravings, grudge is 1 of the only 3 multiplicative engravings in the game… so you cant realy just compare numbers without taking how they are calculated in consideration… grudge is the strongest engraving the game without a doubt…

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Later on in the game you can take both Hit Master and Grudge for classes that needs it. Grudge is just icing on a cake for the maximum damage amplification. This is because you can get up to 5 engravings. Take sorc for example. You get class 3, hit master 3, all out attack 3. Now you need 2 more engravings. Grudge and cursed doll can fill in the last two if you are going crit spec. If you are going swift spec, you will need crit in engraving which means you can include an adrenaline 1 last and swap out cursed doll for raid captain. But the last two should increase overall damage to fill in the gaps of the armor.

Still discussions like these are very good because it can open up room for build testers, who can figure out the most optimal builds for the community.

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Grudge is superior in every way possible. It just requires players to get good. Simple as that.

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Oh is it ? Like what if the boss encounter is starting with boss at 30% health ? See it’s not better any “any” possible way.

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It is once you figure out what additive vs multiplicative means. :slight_smile:

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Problem with disrespect is we dont really have any content where to really utilize it. It has allowed me to get MVPs in first time argos clears but thats about it. Now when all 8 people are usually alive, its way worse than grudge or hit master. Only fight where its currently good is velganos so is it worth getting it as 4th engraving depends on how is Valtan fight. Of course its better than nothing so if your choice is between running something like awakening as 4th or disrespect, then disrespect clearly wins.

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Why would you swap out cursed doll for raid captain?
There is no build where you have enough movement speed on sorc to make raid captain viable.

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Actually you are right. That is my mistake

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Yeah, you don’t really need Grudge power (relative to others engravings) to deal with the content if all 8 people are alive and everything goes well anyway tho. I think that’s the point of Disrespect and why I’m playing it with my alts. When this comment will stop being relevant because content start having dps requierements, then I’ll consider getting a more expansive setup for my alts, but by this time I’ll most likely have Leg Grudge and I’ll be fine.