How do you feel about comp. PvP and its matchmaking? How could the experience be improved?

TL;DR at the bottom.

Hey guys,

So I’ve been thinking about this for quite a while now and would love to get your opinions in general and about a couple of things I came up with regarding the current state of competitive PvP.
Before I get into suggestions and issues that I see with it though, I’d like to appreciate that:

  • class balance is good enough
    and good enough is really what it comes down to. In every game there will develop a meta, having a community consensus seeing certain classes as being stronger than others, and that’s completely fine. Sure, it can be improved, but here is enough diversity to choose from, even at the highest level as far as I can tell. I’m elaborating on this because I see a little too many posts asking for nerfs

  • combat and the interaction of abilities vs different levels of immunity are great

  • P2W is completely absent in this aspect of the game

I have to say: I love it overall. Many matches are really fun. I feel like the base is there to have an amazing PvP experience, but there are a number of things that I just can’t wrap my head around as to why on earth it would be like that. Feel free to discuss with me. Again, I’m interested in reading your opinion. Having played many different competitive games for the past 10 years, this is my take on it.

Priority of my points of criticism from top to bottom:

  • matchmaking
    specifically I want to talk about the ELO disparity
    a) of players in one team, and
    b) between the two teams

a):
Have you guys also had games, where there is a bronze player, a silver player and a freaking diamond player in one team? I see more people asking for nerfs than talking about this, and it really bothers me. I’ve never seen this in any other game before (unless there is a system to minimize smurfing using some kind of hidden ELO, which doesn’t seem to be the case here) and it needs to change. In my opinion teaming a bronze even with a gold player should never happen. In every game I played there were differences in the perception of how the optimal playstyle should be in each respective rank. Jumbling all kind of ranks into one lobby makes for a worse learning environment and experience.
The only counter argument I could accept here is: PvP is dead. If they wouldn’t allow for that to happen, queue time for platinum+ would take forever.

b):
Why is it that the cumulative ELO of one teams players often times is 100 or more points higher than the other teams? Again, I shake my head in disbelief. It makes zero sense to me. Most times this could even be fixed simply by swapping player A of team A with player B of team B to even out the difference in ELO from 100 down to 20. Nobody likes steamrolls. Close, tense games are simply way more fun.

  • mirror matchups
    I feel this is a possible explaination for points a) and b). Now this isn’t always the case, which is why I can’t exclude the possibility of my brain pulling some weird cognitive bias shenanigans on me.
    What I mean is: the matchmaking algo seems to preferably draft the teams of a match using the same exact subclasses respectively. Perhaps in 30-40% of the games it’s a mirror match. Maybe less. If this is so, maybe creating mirror matchups even takes priority over having less of a difference in the teams ELO. Again, I think this is a bad thing if it’s true.
    And honestly: do we actually prefer mirror matchups? Personally, I prefer when there is more diversity. I stopped playing normal games in LoL partly because of that (mirrors aren’t possible in comp there) and in Starcraft 2 many people would use some weird ass build in mirror matches just to get it over with quicker.
    I want add though: it’s fine with me if they want to have something where there can only be max. 1 bard per team or max. 1 support per team in general. I don’t think that’s a necessity, but it’s fine.

  • the goddamn intro
    Why? Every time we have to spent about a minute from loading into the match to actually playing, waiting for this intro to play each and every single game. I mean come on. Sure, you got a nice skin, it should be shown, but isn’t it displayed enough in the post match? Please, don’t waste my time like that. I want to grind. Queue time is bad enough. At least cut the cheering part of it, why would you not?
    The best queue system I have seen in a game is in Rocket League. You can literally hit “play again” as soon as the games finishes and the score screen is shown. Imagine queueing instantly after a match finishes in Lost Ark, how much time that would save.
    Now I assume that kind of thing is just technically impossible on their end, but I would still very much like to see them decrease the downtime between the actual playtime in whatever way possible!

I’d love to see them make PvP better. I’m getting kind of bored with progression, but PvP always entertains me and I think it has a lot of room to grow.

TL;DR
“improve PvP” ideas:
-less ELO difference between players of one team and between teams
-decrease downtime between the actual playtime of the matches

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I actually feel like its pretty fun, to me as a DE the classes seem fairly balanced compared to other mmo pvp systems. Only real issue i had with it as someone who came/comes from gw2 pvp and wvw is i miss the different terrain/elevations and the impact they have on combat situations. Pvp Island and the battlegrounds are nice as well but still feels very restricted compared to wvw on gw2. Overall though i like lost ark pvp, maybe not as much as gw2 but its still pretty decent.

Generally speaking the one with the lower cumulative points will have the higher individual player(s). Skill doesn’t scale linearly with Elo, so your team is getting a much larger boost by having a 2100 player over a 2000 player, vs having a 1600 player over a 1500 player. 100 MMR boost in both cases but the 2100 player is relatively more skilled than the 2000 player than the 1600 player is more skilled than the 1500 player.

This is, IMO, where the focus should lie. Or, a modified version of this at least. Mirrors can be whatever comp on both sides, but if it’s not a mirror the support situation should never be more imbalanced than one team having one and the other having none (trying to fix that issue is probably too big a strain on the system). Single support team vs. zero support team is fine, but double support team vs. zero or single support team is not. Tighten up the matchmaking at least enough so it’s always either 2v2, 1v1, or 1v0.

This absolutely. The trophy screen is more than sufficient peacocking. No need for the intro. Just load us in and start the countdown.

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Hey man, thanks for sharing your thoughts! It is always a pleasure to read different people’s opinions when they are presented respectfully and argumentatively.

I totally agree that the match making should be improved a lot. SoloQ depends on good matchmaking and if it does not work properly then it really can ruin people’s experience.

also i totally agree that the mmr should also be improved, the current mmr is very very grindy and it could lead to frustration.

In my opinion the balance of the classes is fairly decent and they actually did a good job with it, but i would like to see small frequent ajustments to the meta.

I also think that more ranked modes would be awesome for example ranked 6v6 Co-Op since there is a lot of ppl which prefer objective based pvp than arena based.

On your question about the rank disparity (bronze , silver,plat) in same team. This is very common for games with soloQ system , in order to reduce the queue wait time usually the algorithm tries to find people from the same backet , but if in certain amount of time it cannot then it search for people from all the brackets and try to match as close as possible the average team rating. I seen this also in GW2, FF14 and etc, usually games with soloQ only.

In general the pvp has a lot of potential and its very fun and engaging in my opinion.

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Interesting. I never played GW2 or FF14 PvP. What I’ve seen in LoL, Rocket League, Overwatch & CSGO is that there is never a huge disparity in ELO between any of the members of a match - unless some people queue up as a team of course. Steamrolls happen in those games mostly because of smurfing it seems to me.

I understand that this problem that I see in LA could likely have to do with an attempt to reduce queue time, but AFAIK PvP comp. is across all servers of one region, meaning there “should” be enough players in theory unless it’s really unpopular. But still, since you know that it’s the same with similar other games I guess you are probably right… Nothing they can do about it in that case :frowning:

I’m not sure what you mean by that. I am a believer that the ELO system is the best one, just in the case of LA it’s not applied optimally. How could this be different in your opinion? From my experience it is pretty much always like that. Just sometimes games would use things like “ranks/tiers” to reflect skill level, while hiding the actual amount of ELO (I prefer when ELO is shown)

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Oh wow, I feel dumb. That’s a really good thought, I’ll keep an eye out for that.
Still, if possible, it’d be great to keep the range of ELO tighter in one match, imo, just to avoid this problem of anticipating how much you’d need to downscale a high ELO player and thus fairly matching people.

It’s really nonsensical, yea. Since nobody is allowed to queue as a team, why not just give each team one support instead of 2v0 if two supps end up in one match…

Not really working as intended in this, there isnt a HUGE difference between a 1900 player and a 3000 player as is atm. There isnt enough high ranking players so queues are currently fucked with using avg team MMR. Winrates are hugely inflated due to it and people are not eventually hitting that 50% winrate as usually fighting people of lower skills. Its way too easy to gain MMR atm as a average player.

In the games you mentioned i would assume that its the same, but since they are pvp only , this problem does not occur because the playerbase is quite large and not devided in different content, ofcourse i could be wrong on that. LA has good playerbase but its mainly focused in pve and the pvp playerbase is not that high so this problem occurs very often.

Sorry i will try to explain my self better. I dont like the scaling at the beginning of a season , it puts heavy focus on your first 100 games, you can check in top 200 people which are the with less than 100 games and now they are tanking their ELO. After the first 100 games it becomes much grindier to climb ranks and i suggested few different options which i think will make the system a bit less grindy and more rewarding.

  1. Account the personal performance in the points calculation as it is done in GW2, for this to work properly they really need to add much more personal metrics for more accurate measurement of performance.

  2. Use the system of WoW, in there you have a actual ELO and MMR , when your MMR os higher from your ELO you receive more point for win than lose , when your MMR is lower then your ELO you win less points then you loose b cause you higher than you should be, and when they are relatively the same you win and loose same amount of points because you are in your right rank. This i believe will make the system less grindy, because if you are winning more matches then your mmr will be higher then your elo and you will climb faster, if you loose more than winning then you will loose more points than wining and drop to the right rank faster.

Sorry for my english, and thank you for the discussion.

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Nah, not really fun but the stuffs to buy is really good thing.

Balance is questionable and is more like paper, scissor and rock.
The build is mostly literal and very limited, otherwise outside of the build is too unreliable. Its getting monotonous lately.
CC stuffs okay, can manage but CC from standard attack? Ehh … it cancels any skills without superarmor easily, that’s why.

There is a problem in Coop about 2 same team seperately I got occasionally 2 supports in a first team and second one has no support. There is no option for re-position or I overlooked it?

Only I find nice about PvP, that it has “transmoq” system - you can look what you want since gears score has no influence on PvP.

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There is far too much difference in how easy classes are to play. A pally or a Dblade has to perform at 50% to do what a striker, soulfist, scrapper or glaivier does putting in 100%.

Matchmaking is also impossibly broken

Source of the numbers “trust me bro”

It is not good and everybody agrees with that

You can’t just say disprove my argument about how easy pally and dblade is by saying an outdated meme. You can’t even post your rank on here and I bet you anything you dont play ranked above a gold level. prove me wrong

haha i already did posted my rank, and i never said that i am above gold :smiley: … try again angry boy

I thought you are leaving … what are you still doing here mate?

give it up. The pvp and matchmaking in lost ark has been like this for a few years now in both Korea and Russia version of the game. The devs should already know how broken it is but hasn’t really done much about it. As much as i would like them investing more resources to make pvp in lost ark better because I think the combat is amazing but the reality is pvp to them is an after thought and no matter how much we give feedbacks, they won’t do a damn thing. So yes “pvp is dead” is the current state.

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Well unfortunately thats probably true, the main focus of the game is pve not pvp as most mmorpgs out there, they said that this year they will do more pvp changes , but we will se what will happen…

Deathblade singlehandedly killed the majority of the pvp population because of metaslaves abusing the strongest class, and now they release Destroyer which is even more insane of a class and pvp is practically dead. The population is now so low that you are guaranteed to have at least 1 deathblade in every single game, if not 2 or 3. There are 17 classes. When I ask my friends who pvp on every game why they don’t want to play Lost Ark pvp, Deathblade and Gunslingers are the reason (they quit pvp before Destroyer came out).

Not even exaggerating, in a daily session of pvp I face triple deathblade comps at least once a day. If I’m lucky, I’ll only have to deal with that once a day.

The absolute irony that Destroyer hard counters Deathblade by having more immunities is hilarious because now we get to see Deathblade players cry about something being OP since they’re no longer the top of the food chain. They wholeheartedly deserve it.

And this is before we even start to consider classes like Gunslinger exist that are insanely unfun to play again. They fish for the same flowchart combo for the entire game, and all it takes is for them to sneeze in your direction and your character has a stroke because a pellet hit their pinky toe and they writhe in agony for longer than most stuns in the game last. After they finish taking more than half of your HP, they super armor hop across the arena until their cooldowns are back up. The only classes that can even bother fighting them are other high mobility classes like martial artists. Problem is, there are barely any martial artist players because they have to put in so much more effort than a metaslave class does and they don’t think it is worth it to bother.

I’m not even going to start on the disgustingly bad matchmaking. So yeah, the moral of the story is that the pvp sucks because certain classes exist in it that push out the other 90% of classes from enjoying the game. Don’t get me wrong, pvp is insanely fun to do. That is, until you have to deal with the same abusive classes every single game.

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This right here. Just think about how many classes exist in this game, and every game you have to play vs a pally, dblade or destroyer on na. Every game its on you to outplay something that requires more from you to do it, then requires from them to spam super armor and get half decent results.

so will you share your rating with us?

For me (i am bronze) there is no problem to play against gold, diamond till in my team is one gold/diamond too :slight_smile: imo it is nice experience to play with much better player from time to time then waiting more time for mm.
For me pvp intro takes to long time, they can cut it down by few seconds or give us option to do somethink in that time. Maybe let us take a look on oponnents skills and tripods will be good improvement.

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i wish we could have 6v6 all time and not just 2Hours a day , i love aoe the shit out of the battlefield with my mage haha