Request to adjust/remove enrage timer

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I know I might receive a lot of flak for this, but so be it! With the addition of Brelshaza hard mode, gates 5 and 6 seem to be a bit harder than expected, which is generally okay, but one of my biggest frustrations comes from the enrage timer.

In my opinion, raid timers don’t make sense for content that is expected to be cleared weekly for progression rewards (e.g. phantom intentions). Raid timers should be limited to inferno mode which is the whole purpose for this mode! Normal and hard modes are simply progression content that should be clearable with survival and slowly poking the boss.

Players will still want to defeat the boss as quick as possible even without a timer due to simply surviving longer takes more resources and is riskier. Thus the timer could be removed so that less experienced players can focus a little more on staying alive instead of using a riskier playstyle (which often gets the raid wiped if 1 player dies).

For some comparison, I look at a lot of other games with hard bosses and notice that they don’t have enrage timers, or if they do, they are incredibly lenient (maybe 1-2 hours) and they are only there to prevent squatting/claiming a boss.

Another negative aspect from the tight DPS checks in the game are players resorting to third-party DPS meter tools. These of course are not allowed by the ToS but some players still do it because of the nature of these raids. If your group with all 8 players alive is failing due to the boss enraging, who’s fault is it? Pointing fingers can be toxic of course, but what if you’re the one that wants to improve and you didn’t know you’re that far behind other DPS?

With the removal of the raid timer for normal/hard content (inferno can keep it), players won’t need to resort to drastic measures to figure out why a party couldn’t defeat the boss in time.

I’m not asking for major mechanic nerfs here, but is removing the enrage timer a bad thing? For players seeking glory with a time-trial speedrun, there is always inferno mode. But for players just wanting to progress their characters, the fight is hard enough without a timer!

If removing the enrage timer is out of the question, consider increasing it by up to 20-50% if the average ilevel of the group does not exceed say 10-20. I would like to see more players be able to complete content albeit a bit more slowly rather than simply give up due to exhaustion.

Thank you for reading and I understand if you disagree with my opinion but welcome you to discuss all the same. :slight_smile:

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Just need to do more damage.

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Thanks for the comment. Of course, dealing more damage does circumvent the problem but this is about making the raid more accessible, not necessarily easier, for more players. Doing more damage might not even be feasible for everyone. How can one be sure they are doing “enough” damage or not without these illegal third-party tools.

The 1590+ whales with level 10 gems and the like won’t be encountering these enrage issues as often as more casual/frugal players with the listed minimum requirements. The raid is already more difficult for those lesser-geared players but putting a sharp timer on top of that is another layer of unneeded stress and difficulty.

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Thank you for this feedback @Verthandi I will note and if anyone else has comments please feel free to share.

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Hm, did you try doing more damage? But if I’m being serious, your suggestion is very surface-level.

The raid already has a casual-friendly progression option - it’s called Gate 1 and 2, or even 3 and 4 if you feel adventurous. Doing them is enough to gear up your character in full ancient at a decent pace.
Gate 5 and 6 are the end game for us now, so it’s supposed to pose a challenge, otherwise what’s the point? And one part of this challenge is a dps check. Wouldn’t you agree it’s only fair that every party member has to master their character to a certain degree to be able to clear the game’s top content?

I do not quite understand why a lot of people treat the end-game raids this way. If someone’s not experienced enough to clear the raid, why the first course of action is to ask for nerfs instead of actually getting experience? You join the prog party and you happily wipe together with other inexperienced folks, learning what boss attacks can kill you, where the dps windows are and so on. These raids are not only about these timed 8-man gimmicks, it’s also about moment-to-moment execution and teamwork which could be very rewarding once you get a hang of it.

Don’t want to argue the morality of dps meters here, but consider this. Building a game with so many build components that affect your damage and then not giving adequate in-game tools to measure the results of your efforts is a joke. You could say that we have Trixion, but if anything it does more harm than good. Classes’ performance in an actual raid is very different from hitting a standing still dummy and that alone created gatekeeping for certain classes. Take legacy scouter for example. It does the least amount of damage in Trixion, yet because of the class traits (shield, constant paralysis immune) in the actual raid his performance is not that different from other classes.

I think the word “toxic” is quite toxic. These days whenever you try to critique someone as politely as possible with all the right arguments to base your claims if you hurt their ego a bit in the process they would just call you toxic and ignore whatever you try to say to them (and report you for good measure).

If we had a built-in meter it would not have been a problem, right? oh wait…

I take it that you mostly created the topic because of gate 5-6 brel hard, right? From my observations, a lot of people die quite early in the fight where patterns are pretty tame. So imagine the timer is no more, all these players play safer and manage to make it past the last mech. So now they’re facing the most deadly version of Brel’s normal patterns. Group damage is lower, due to everyone’s trying to be safe and because of that the group will have to spend way more time in this phase. Do you seriously think they’d manage to live and claim a clear?

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Thanks for the lengthy response. I agree a challenging battle is a good thing, but not with an artificial time limit imposed that more casual players cannot achieve, even if they survive to the end.

My comment was to keep the ultra-challenges in inferno mode for the hardcore players. I progged g5 with a group and we did survive quite far but were way too behind on DPS. I’d rather remove or lessen the DPS check instead of have people use DPS meters or other tools to single people out.

Edit: I’d also like to add that it seems to me that the game is designed to punish skill-imbalanced groups. You can’t play with friends that are not at your skill level or you will hold them back or they’ll hold you back. But without the DPS meter, you can’t even tell who!

Again, no DPS meter please but adjust the raid timer for on ilevel players or those with non-whale status.

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The time limit is by no means artificial here it is a part of the challenge.

Also, the latter part of your statement is a bit puzzling. Why casual players should be able to clear the game’s hardest raid on week 1? The time investment needed to simply gear your character and be on ilvl for g5-6 week 1 is already no casual territory.

Again, why your only answer is asking for a nerf? It is pretty natural for prog party damage to be low, but it fixes itself over time if you’re actively trying to learn the fight. Simple raid knowledge can buff your damage way more than 10-20-30 ilvls.

That is a correct observation. This type of game is not for everyone, you just have to accept it.

UPD: Actually it’s a matter of perspective. If your goal is to clear the raid as fast as possible and move on - then yes, the game is punishing for groups with high skill differences. But there’s always another side to this coin. If you change your goal from “clearing asap” to “teach my inexperienced friends a fight” then it all fixes itself and you can still have a fun time together when there’s no added pressure of clearing the raid right there and then.

Oh worry not, they won’t add it in foreseeable future. The game director seems pretty adamant about it.

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On the contrary, let’s make it more strict. It’s about time to learn how to play your class after a year, but somehow more than half of the playerbase’s performance and uptime is just terrible.

That’s what happens when there’s no real dps check in the game - bad players won’t get better because they know they can get away with that anyway.

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I say the balance now is just right. It gently pushes players towards actually learning their character and the fight (or complaining on the forum and asking for nerfs). It would simply be impractical to have tighter dps checks as the game is already quite niche. Plus we have hell mode for the added challenge (I wish there was more rewards for hell clears though…)

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Just swipe more to shorten the raid time

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In yesterdays reclear our group had 1 person die in cubes, one more after at around 75ish bars. Luckily they both had been assigned the same shape so we could pass the mech anyway. We cleared like this, with like 30secs to enrage.
We do the counter mech and dont use Innana bullshit.
Noone of us is whaling highest ilvl is 1570.

If you struggle with dps after 4 months of normal mode - which is pretty much the same fight - the solution to your problem is to learn the bosses attack patterns and your own class.

Stop crying for nerfs and instead spend that time learning the game.
Thank you.

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Don’t bother, they won’t do it.

The enrage timers are probably based on hectolitres of coffee game devs drank to deliver legion raid.

Imagine how difficult would be to add a couple more minutes if there’s a mokoko in the raid.

Typical just don’t get hit bro/it’s a skill issue Andy.
Surely you can pull off many things when your team is exp, have good comp and perhaps they all sit in voice chat

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G5 - Classes with good - strong stagger = Bring dark bombs
G6 - All bring dark bombs

Use voice coms if that’s an option to say you’re throwing darks and use it on rotation/counters.

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i think it’s too early to ask for an enrage timer increase.

the raid has been out for 1 week. When i cleared we had 3 minutes on the clock before 7 line mech.

the more people get used of the fight, the easier it will be to push dps.

Also, in G6 we rotated dark bombs, you might also want to do that.

On G5, people use inana instead of azena to cheese the stagger / counter mechanic. So this is also a reason why DPS feels tighter. (also people not dps while collecting orbs).

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@op your idea makes no sense and even has a contradiction:

  • enrage timers are kind of a dps check, in order to make sure that you care about your character progression

  • they are in the first 1-2 weeks relevant and then they aren’t

  • you write players will want to defeat the boss as quick as possible, as normal and hard modes are weekly progression.

→ well- in terms of time efficiency, you define and decide for yourself, if its worth for you or not.

meaning- does it make sense for you, to run brel g3-6 for gold only, after getting your set? or maybe there are other sources of more efficient gold farm?

if there won’t be any enrage timers at all- then you would only need your item level without any gems, cards, engravings. so imagine- 1560 parties with maybe 1x3 class engraving, 0 gems, random quality of gear. the fight would take ages for sure and if no one make any mistake then you should be able to clear it after idk, 40min or smtg.

but do you really want this? you wrote already that it should be a simply progression, and the enrage timers makes sure this

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DPS balancing is actually not that bad in this game. I wonder why people fail to notice it.

What is this mokoko even doing in the hardest end-game content on week 1? That’s just nuts.

But it is a skill issue. What stops you, yes YOU from becoming experienced so you can pull this off too?

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I think here lies the other problem @op happily glosses over. If the people in question don’t have the skills required to push damage fast enough, how are they supposed to survive in a fight that’s let’s say twice longer? The slower they go, the more difficult it becomes to survive. So they go even slower and in turn, it gets even more difficult to live due to battle item attrition. Patterns towards the end are more deadly - just remember how much crap spawns on g5 on the final stretch.

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A lot of arguments about ‘dps check is part of the challenge’ in reality are just a thing in the first couple of weeks. After that people just become overgeared and it’s only about the wipe mechs.
I’m sure if legion raids would be normalized like in hell you would see way more ppl here complaining about the timer. It’s just that ppl suffer for a couple of weeks and then forget about it.
To me the timer in practice just pushes ppl to hone and not become better at the raid

As of the argument that without timer it would be easier/more casual. Going in on ilvl and surviving extra 20-30% time above the timer with all the end gate patterns sounds anything but easier =)) When half the mechs one shots any squishy dps, having to stay longer just increases chances of failing some random pattern and die.

TLDR timer can be part of the challenge in normalized content, here it’s just a motivation to push your char past min entry ilvl. I say that bcs that’s what I see all around me, everyone pushing his chars after week 1 experience.

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This isn’t an argument at all xD With enrage/berserk mode it’s literally much harder to survive for even 20 seconds, let alone deal dps in that time to finish the raid. How is removing the timer not helping exactly? The patterns you need to dodge for 1-2 more minutes are normal, not faster, more frequent and they deal less dmg than in berserk mode.

It just doesn’t make sense.

And yeah it kinda loses the point when you’re overgeared, so it does only exist to make people hone xD

Yesterday we all died on Valtan ghost phase and a Bard stayed alive with 15 hp bars on Valtan and no Thirain. She just ran around in circle for 2-3 minutes and countered the mini-Valtans to accumulate stacks. Not once did she hit Valtan - she was just running around and countering. I knew what her plan was but I didn’t dare to hope it would work and it did - in the end she just one shot Valtan with one basic attack xD

It was inspiring. It shows the battle doesn’t stop necessarily when Berserk mode is on.

Unfortunately, it’s only possible in Valtan. No other berserk modes will let you go unpunished, ever. There’s no mechanic which can save you.

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Thanks everyone for the informative discussions!

I see that my opinion isn’t shared by most since I’m possibly less skilled than most of you! My concern was to make the raid possible with any amount of DPS but not nerf the fight in any other mechanical aspect.

I realize that the argument will be moot once most players are overgeared in the 1600+ range, but what about newer or more casual players when they first reach 1560? Surviving the mechs is already very difficult and having a hard timer basically just imposes an arbitrary DPS check, which when adjusted, doesn’t change the fight at all.

As a side effect, my idea was also aimed at stopping the toxicity growing from people using DPS meters in these raids with tight DPS checks. There is also discrimination going on as well as certain classes or builds that aren’t “meta” according to some source are skipped over and denied entry into party finder groups (this happened with my Relfux sorceress last week).

As for the comments about surviving longer is more difficult, with the enrage timer, surviving at ALL is impossible if the boss enrages (due to the boss getting ~10% HP back every 60 seconds). With a longer timer, some players can play more defensively to live longer and the supports could focus on heals more than damage buffs.

Is it really a bad thing to let more players across a wider skill range be able to clear the endgame content? Again, I leave the difficult challenges to inferno-mode which shouldn’t need any adjustments.