I say the balance now is just right. It gently pushes players towards actually learning their character and the fight (or complaining on the forum and asking for nerfs). It would simply be impractical to have tighter dps checks as the game is already quite niche. Plus we have hell mode for the added challenge (I wish there was more rewards for hell clears though…)
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Just swipe more to shorten the raid time
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In yesterdays reclear our group had 1 person die in cubes, one more after at around 75ish bars. Luckily they both had been assigned the same shape so we could pass the mech anyway. We cleared like this, with like 30secs to enrage.
We do the counter mech and dont use Innana bullshit.
Noone of us is whaling highest ilvl is 1570.
If you struggle with dps after 4 months of normal mode - which is pretty much the same fight - the solution to your problem is to learn the bosses attack patterns and your own class.
Stop crying for nerfs and instead spend that time learning the game.
Thank you.
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Don’t bother, they won’t do it.
The enrage timers are probably based on hectolitres of coffee game devs drank to deliver legion raid.
Imagine how difficult would be to add a couple more minutes if there’s a mokoko in the raid.
Typical just don’t get hit bro/it’s a skill issue Andy.
Surely you can pull off many things when your team is exp, have good comp and perhaps they all sit in voice chat
G5 - Classes with good - strong stagger = Bring dark bombs
G6 - All bring dark bombs
Use voice coms if that’s an option to say you’re throwing darks and use it on rotation/counters.
i think it’s too early to ask for an enrage timer increase.
the raid has been out for 1 week. When i cleared we had 3 minutes on the clock before 7 line mech.
the more people get used of the fight, the easier it will be to push dps.
Also, in G6 we rotated dark bombs, you might also want to do that.
On G5, people use inana instead of azena to cheese the stagger / counter mechanic. So this is also a reason why DPS feels tighter. (also people not dps while collecting orbs).
@op your idea makes no sense and even has a contradiction:
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enrage timers are kind of a dps check, in order to make sure that you care about your character progression
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they are in the first 1-2 weeks relevant and then they aren’t
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you write players will want to defeat the boss as quick as possible, as normal and hard modes are weekly progression.
→ well- in terms of time efficiency, you define and decide for yourself, if its worth for you or not.
meaning- does it make sense for you, to run brel g3-6 for gold only, after getting your set? or maybe there are other sources of more efficient gold farm?
if there won’t be any enrage timers at all- then you would only need your item level without any gems, cards, engravings. so imagine- 1560 parties with maybe 1x3 class engraving, 0 gems, random quality of gear. the fight would take ages for sure and if no one make any mistake then you should be able to clear it after idk, 40min or smtg.
but do you really want this? you wrote already that it should be a simply progression, and the enrage timers makes sure this
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DPS balancing is actually not that bad in this game. I wonder why people fail to notice it.
What is this mokoko even doing in the hardest end-game content on week 1? That’s just nuts.
But it is a skill issue. What stops you, yes YOU from becoming experienced so you can pull this off too?
I think here lies the other problem @op happily glosses over. If the people in question don’t have the skills required to push damage fast enough, how are they supposed to survive in a fight that’s let’s say twice longer? The slower they go, the more difficult it becomes to survive. So they go even slower and in turn, it gets even more difficult to live due to battle item attrition. Patterns towards the end are more deadly - just remember how much crap spawns on g5 on the final stretch.
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A lot of arguments about ‘dps check is part of the challenge’ in reality are just a thing in the first couple of weeks. After that people just become overgeared and it’s only about the wipe mechs.
I’m sure if legion raids would be normalized like in hell you would see way more ppl here complaining about the timer. It’s just that ppl suffer for a couple of weeks and then forget about it.
To me the timer in practice just pushes ppl to hone and not become better at the raid
As of the argument that without timer it would be easier/more casual. Going in on ilvl and surviving extra 20-30% time above the timer with all the end gate patterns sounds anything but easier =)) When half the mechs one shots any squishy dps, having to stay longer just increases chances of failing some random pattern and die.
TLDR timer can be part of the challenge in normalized content, here it’s just a motivation to push your char past min entry ilvl. I say that bcs that’s what I see all around me, everyone pushing his chars after week 1 experience.
This isn’t an argument at all xD With enrage/berserk mode it’s literally much harder to survive for even 20 seconds, let alone deal dps in that time to finish the raid. How is removing the timer not helping exactly? The patterns you need to dodge for 1-2 more minutes are normal, not faster, more frequent and they deal less dmg than in berserk mode.
It just doesn’t make sense.
And yeah it kinda loses the point when you’re overgeared, so it does only exist to make people hone xD
Yesterday we all died on Valtan ghost phase and a Bard stayed alive with 15 hp bars on Valtan and no Thirain. She just ran around in circle for 2-3 minutes and countered the mini-Valtans to accumulate stacks. Not once did she hit Valtan - she was just running around and countering. I knew what her plan was but I didn’t dare to hope it would work and it did - in the end she just one shot Valtan with one basic attack xD
It was inspiring. It shows the battle doesn’t stop necessarily when Berserk mode is on.
Unfortunately, it’s only possible in Valtan. No other berserk modes will let you go unpunished, ever. There’s no mechanic which can save you.
Thanks everyone for the informative discussions!
I see that my opinion isn’t shared by most since I’m possibly less skilled than most of you! My concern was to make the raid possible with any amount of DPS but not nerf the fight in any other mechanical aspect.
I realize that the argument will be moot once most players are overgeared in the 1600+ range, but what about newer or more casual players when they first reach 1560? Surviving the mechs is already very difficult and having a hard timer basically just imposes an arbitrary DPS check, which when adjusted, doesn’t change the fight at all.
As a side effect, my idea was also aimed at stopping the toxicity growing from people using DPS meters in these raids with tight DPS checks. There is also discrimination going on as well as certain classes or builds that aren’t “meta” according to some source are skipped over and denied entry into party finder groups (this happened with my Relfux sorceress last week).
As for the comments about surviving longer is more difficult, with the enrage timer, surviving at ALL is impossible if the boss enrages (due to the boss getting ~10% HP back every 60 seconds). With a longer timer, some players can play more defensively to live longer and the supports could focus on heals more than damage buffs.
Is it really a bad thing to let more players across a wider skill range be able to clear the endgame content? Again, I leave the difficult challenges to inferno-mode which shouldn’t need any adjustments.
simple answer, get gud, or play with people equally bad, will you ever clear probably not, since it was never meant to be a casual content
How is that possible? Thirain removes 10 bars on Valtan, not to mention he also heal over time while on berserk.
I dont know but she clearly knew what she was doing, it was epicnto watch.
Valtan did heal for 2 bars from 8 to 10 while she was countering, but the amount of stacks she collected was enough to one shot him
Thirain was used while second last to die was alive so that was already gone
It was a 1462,5 bard btw
I see, I guess I missed the memo then. I thought inferno mode existed for the hardcore gamers.
Spent more time in G5 and AGAIN we would have won if not for the STUPIDLY tight timer. According to someone that did use a DPS meter, my artillerist was pulling ~4.3M dps average throughout the fight but that wasn’t enough barely. We had 8 alive until about 30 bars and had 7 alive all the way up until the enrage.
This is NOT a 1560 raid… the developers messed up the numbers and tuned it for 1580-1590+. There is no way this raid was meant to be cleared with +17 gear and level 7 gems. Maybe by professional KR vets or something, but I see no way a skill casual player can do this, let alone weekly.
Now we’re entering the territory of “show pet” for pug games, which is highly toxic considering clearing G5+ is already an insane achievement for most players. @Roxx and other CMs, please please pass this information to the devs… the fight is very difficult but the timer is overtuned too much for 1560.
Edit: for reference my 1565 artillerist uses a standard 5x3 barrage build (lv7 gems, lv9 barrage gem), +20 weapon (only 83 qual), +17 armor, LoS18, 1777 spec, with all tripods maxed.
Realistically, the only upgrades I could get are a higher quality (failed the 1.4% at 83 quality for many months now), a level 10 gem (which I don’t have the 500k gold for), and/or the LoS30 set (which requires luck but I’m 4 cards/selectors away).
Or a few more ilvels, or a few more skills
Why do you keep coming back with this casual stuff? A casual player will clear g1-4, get their full ancient, hone a few taps and then attempt g5-6 if they want a pet, or won’t attempt it at all. These two gates are not meant to be casual friendly. Period.
Why would you need any upgrades? This is already plenty for both gates.