Not really it is both generated by players and the game. If there isnt jails, people would have less incentive to gatekeep. If they are allowed to redo gate 1 and get voided from rewards, there will be no jails. Of course there will be still people gatekeeping, but it will be reduced.
That’s why you create matchmaking raids for these low level rosters. If you havent experience NM lately as i have created new characters after my 6 main rosters, it is pretty bad especially for Vykas NM you get jailed pretty hard from the amount of imposters.
If you want to clear as fast as possible is the only way. Then accept anyone that dare to apply and if they fail or die kick them write their nicks and stronghold’s names down for future raids and continue.
This would be the most toxic approach to gatekeeping but it would actually start to group the better players.
Some players join reclear parties without the enough reclear expierence and expect to be carried or forgivien when they make your raid wipe dozens of times and is borderline disrecpectful.
And you dont think those players will go find similar players if they could? Just how many do you think learning parties do get filled up unless it is first week raid content release. If people can redo G1 raids, a lot less people will complain about getting jailed and gatekeeping. A lot less people will gatekeep as hard as now. Sure it wouldnt solve gatekeeping completely it is a step.
Guess what they still will. Same with Know mechs and many others because those imposters can’t find any other lobbies. If you have look at NAE NM lobbies there isnt a lot of lobbies there compare to HM. That’s why it is all about reducing the problem to the point it is less of a problem then it is as apparent as it is now.
Hard disagree on both just my experience is completely not that. You are being diplomatic to the point where it’s actually not helping the problem I think. You are saying that you can’t do Valtan NM or Vykas NM and even if you name your lobby fail = kick they will join. Guess what. All those people belong to learning groups. They don’t create them it’s on them a problem they create for themselves.
Lol, really? If i dont want to end up getting jailed, i will gatekeep really hard just so i dont end up getting jailed and having to spend 1-2 hours in g2 to look for similar people getting jailed. I will gatekeep way less if i dont get jailed. Plus i have created lobbies and inspected gear and roster and try to find at least 120+ roster or gatekeep similarly along those lines for NM. You always have chance getting jailed even if you gatekeep and guess what you will gatekeep even harder and end up harder finding people joining you.
I am not saying i can’t do them, but it’s all about HOW bad it is and how much time spend because of all these things happen. You are missing my point really really hard.
That’s why the title system is crap. You would only need to accomodate the vets to solve this problem. Like let’s say they add 100, 250, 500 clear titles or just achievments. Then when you create a party you can just set it as a requirement let’s say 100x HM Valtan clears achi to be able to join your lobby if they don’t have it they can’t even apply. I can guarantee that if they added this to the game suddenly those learning parties would rapidly start to appear in PF.
Do you really think so? Cause from that it will make people gatekeep even harder and harder and harder instead of actually make gatekeeping less and people will bus way more and create more imposters.
Getting rid of jail and create progression learning instead of throwing players immediately from low difficulty raids to immediate legion raids which is a huge step of difficulty from abyss dungeon.
It will make gatekeeping a bit more intelligent. So now you can on your 6 new characters filter for the similar people to you and make your life easier. Likewise people won’t take a 100x Valtan buses just to get into a party.
Because rn people are complaining that you need 1500 ilvl for vykas HM and some requirements are like that because the title, etc. are worthless. I do believe it would reduce these requirements because if you had a 1460 alt and idk like a 100 clears and people on same ilvl will be comfortable to play with you.
It would also force less experienced players to form their own groups which will mean learning too as they now wouldn’t be able to sneak in to experienced groups.
LOL Disgree. Look at Brel and Clown titles that has similar to that already. What you are doing is simply amplify and make the situation worse than actually solve the core part of the problem. Why is there imposters to begin with and why is there all these problems and your solution is to make it worse than actually make it better. The current situation already shows your idea doesnt work and would instead amplify the situation. If every player learn mechs through the game as it is like every other game out there, people will have less incentive of gatekeeping. If you havent experience what new player experience is like you wouldnt say all of this lol.
Their first experience is getting to T3 as fast as possible without learning anything and when they get to 1370, they do not decent build, engraving or anything. They can’t get into any argos groups and have to keep relying on oreha carries and argos bus and dont learn anything about the game. When they got to 1415, finally with at least 3x3 or some what geared, they met with gatekeep and when they try to make learning parties, barely anyone will join unless they go to guilds or have friends. Because of this they have to go get bussed end up with titles and even your 100x achievements guess what they will bus too until they get it.
Your idea would not give any help instead it will force them to get bussed more.
Brel and Clown titles are worthless and you are wrong that impostors are being manufactured because new players have to take the bus. I know people who are 170+ roster level 1500+ full lvl 2 set and only ever rode the bus for both clown and vykas and some other people who only started doing Clown two or three weeks into Brelshaza when they realized no pug will take him with full lvl 1. XD
I have bussed with 30-40 roster lvl people who have made new accounts after their main to bus and also had many 1500+ people with full 5x3 and some level 9 gems join kakul learning parties.
Your mental image and theory on how impostors become impostors is not grounded in reality. A new player can get into raid groups if they have the attitude and really want to do it. What you laid out is a myth. The problem is when people barely pass as having a clear but maybe they did it last week and were dead for most of the fight, etc. and then next week they already start joining reclear parties. Same thing with Vykas when 1460 rejects who can’t get into hard mode now make normal mode lobbies and start gatekeeping themselves, etc. these players would have no choice but to play together if they want to play.
Feel free to disagree but in KR this is how it actually works. The difference is people are genuine about their skill level so they add it to the party title and even though the game has been out much longer they have more learning parties and other parties that are titled “half skilled” etc. so they should just make it a core part of the game. Also if you can set achievments as requirement nothing stopping you from setting something like 10x deathless valtans. GL getting bussed for that.
Agree with botshart here. I think the main problem in the west arent the systems itself, or atleat only to a degree, but the players themselves. Obviously people want to breeze as fast as possible through contet to be “done” for the week. With having 6 characters you need to do it several times over and over again which leads to maximizing time investement for maximum profit.
But i also think that players like people already pointed out, want to take the path of least resistence. That means:
people tend to join lobbies with higher ilvl
people “activly” lie to get into high lvl groups
people do not respond or communicate at all
The things i witnessed for weeks now is, that unexpirienced players want to join expirienced lobbies after one clear of valtan/vykas etc… Why is that? Cause they dont want to wipe hours on end for the second week even tho they are clearly not rdy. In between you put some title buyers and add up everything and you get this weird cocktail of distrust. I am hosting learning parties on friday evenings on my bard for 2 to 3 hours. I had a valtan hard party with fairly “juiced” players(being ilvl 1460 having lvl 5 to 6 gems etc.) and they kept dieng before valtan ghost phase.
After 2 hours i asked if there are any problems, can i explain sth to you etc. Nothing. After three and a half hours i disbanded the group leaving only ONE person in the end saying that he still needs to practise not falling of the arena shortly before ghost phase. ONE person.
You are talking about players who want to learn… Create a lobby yourself at ilvl and say it is a prog party for vykas 1430 or valtan 1415
What Myeura says
It works for KR because KR for this situation is frowned upon way harder than normal. The west mentality is whole lot different.
Yes it is player themselves having those problems, but the system itself also have problems because we dont have any learning curve progressions. If we take a look at other games like WoW, Final Fantasy 14, GW2 and others they are way less of a problem than Lost Ark. Because those games introduce learning progression and create restrictions before getting into harder content. EX: Fractals before allowed to get into higher level Fractal you need ascended gear with Agony Resistance and Infusions. If they found out people have none of that, immediate kicked. Now people wisen up that they have to go through progression before allowing to jjoin higher tier raids. Here as you say people dont communicate, do they want to learn? No… they want to find the least resistance path which is getting carried.
have you tried being on ilvl and being a dps and host learning party? Cause as you say people tend to join higher ilvl. The 1460 guy is basically the same problem happen to many reclear groups of masking themselves through honing. These types of people will find any way to mask themselves in order to appear experienced through bussing, getting carried and many other ways.
I do agree about the FF and WoW part since i am playing classic wotlk at the moment too. The systems in these games allow them to play at their level at their own pace. I suggested sth similar in another thread by making legion raids like valtan for example a 4 man abyss raid with different floors and slightly tuned mechanics being easier.
Since both partys(hardcore and casual) have their own “bubble/safe space” toxicity becomes less. I still think, like botshart said, you should be more geniune and expecially honest about your capacity and skill. Stop lieng and talk to people when someone asks you whats wrong. I mean maybe they are scared or sth. but communication is key. Dont slip into lobbies who arent supposed to play on your ilvl. In WoW depending on your gearscore you will get in or not. But thats cause you need to play the raid itself to even get the gear.
In LA you are getting bussed, buy gear, get title etc… and you learned nothing. People need to start to take "responsibility for themselves to not join “juicer” parties. Even if you are 1500 and dont know the raid very well, go into 1445 lobbies. They will happily accept you
Agreed. However, in reality of there are Lost Ark players there arent a lot of geniune honest players like that. I have met a few willing to communicate and met a few that doesnt say anything. As you say some maybe scared or something along those lines. Therefore, how do we promote less toxicity and make players honest with themselves? As you say you suggested create a new mode like making mechanics tuned or easier for these people or system that is similar. For botstart he wanted to create more titles, achievements, but the question is that doesnt help anymore than create more toxicity and people will find ways to mask themselves harder.
Yes there is only how far by creating these new easy modes can go. It is a start for people who wants to be honest with themselves and learn more. That’s why i can agree with botstart to a certain extent of it is partially Player made problem. However, i dont agree with what he said thinking these players who masks themselves is a myth and creating these systems wouldnt do anything.
Didnt read everthing here, but the topic about gate keeping i well known.
The idea to measure with titles to filter out possible weak players is a predictable issue in the grp finder system. But at least some kind of achievements aka titles arent the worst idea for such measurement. The way they are implemented is kinda weak - but yeah - its SG and Amazon. Sorry for blaming, but they are bloody beginners.
Anyway. There might be a solution in the achievement/title system as mentioned in the first few postings here. For Example in SC2 you might set five achieved achievements into you pofiles starting dialogue.
Now we adapt this to LA. I dont want to wear Vykas, Clown, Brel what ever title, to reduced the amount of gatekept by others for no reason nor do I want to swap stupid titles between every raid …
There are titles for beating Legion Commanders deathless. Ok, nice atempt but nothing really usefull. What if there would be a specified achievement presentation, like mentioned above AND achievements like surviving the specific raid w/o dying, e.g. 10 times, 50 times, 100 times? Most busses wont “support” these achievements but players who actually managed it to suvive at least 10 raids w/o dying should be considered as valuable for a reclear, or?
Would have to change a few things for that for sure.
For one the entire card system, since if you want to eventually max the Legion commander cards for the dark damage set you need to keep doing lower raids like Valtan and Vykas for their respective cards.
Then the way gold earning is done. Since as is you can earn gold on up to 6 characters for up to 3 raids. So maybe give more gold per raid, but get gold from less raids.