The RMT fallacy

General Discussion General Discussion
172

the point of banning rmters is just a logical one. people change their behavior based on threat assessment. Each person has different levels of acceptable risk. By increasing the risk of RMT, you reduce the amount of people willing to RMT. In any systems enforcement, you can try to target either side, or both. There is nothing wrong with targeting either offender.

Yes, lost ark is a game design that is built to create a demand for gold, a desire to pay to get ahead. And that is especially fertile for illegal rmt. However that doesnt mean ilegal rmt isn’t an issue for the game.

strictly speaking in lost ark, if you are f2p, you should probably dislike rmt botting as its directly competing with your ability and value you can sell gold to players.

Now, its possible that lost arks legit rmt trade is not designed in an optimal way for NA users. It might be to hard to progress with legit rmt, or to hard to progress without it, or to hard to see, gold/crystals. But thats separate issues

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173

Queue’s are nice now, come on back =)

174

Yes my point exactly whales will always pump the prices out of the F2P range lol.

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Edits made to the original post to be more reader friendly and to clarify ideas.

176

well … but there is their dilemma because they have also player which are as well not that pleased about p2w mechanics or the shop but try to bear it…
But will def not tolerate this anti cheating stance and the excuses…
So basically this players are kind on hold because asg try to cover that they are doing sth but if they really are avoiding proper punishment to the ones that cheated we are just wasting our time here.
So at this point they can’t avoid losing players .

177

and u still miss my point … if the Whales need the recources of the f2p …
They will always pull the f2p with them … it don’t matter how much they spent or how much gold they buy as long as they interact with the player market any whale will also push f2p at least if their gold / mats comes from the players and not outside of the player community !
And the bots and rmt gold destroy this interaction to some degreee and it gets worse from day to day !

178

once again you are arguing with me over a point i havent even brought up or talked about.

you literally quoted my comment about

WHY RMT AND IN GAME PURCHASES DONT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT ON THE IN GAME ECONOMY

and start to argue over

WHY P2W IS BAD

it’s like someone discussing the effects of buying made in the usa products vs made in china on the us economy, and then you come to argue about its effects on africa and other poor countries that they get the raw matericals from and how it ruins their lives and ruins nature and is unethical.

yes it has a bad effect on africa and is a predatory practice that involves child and basically slave labor, but that isnt even what is being discussed.

yes p2w is annoying and is a thing i dont take part in, but that isnt what my comment that you responded to is about.

even op himself said he pays them to buy stuff and his only problem is how the in game economy is structured and that it needs an overhaul so him and other paying players stick to buying from the game itself and he ends his post with an example saying

so please for the love of god for the last time stop arguing over

WHY P2W IS UNETHICAL
because that wasnt even a part of my comment or even op’s.
if you wanna argue over the morality of p2w start your own thread or only respond to people that p2w is fine.

and to answer your question that i never even addressed once, about p2w.

i hate p2w games, the idea is disgusting, but that’s not from a moral standpoint, that’s from a gamer standpoint.
for me i get joy from working hard, i grind the shit out of any game i play, be it ARK where you grind for days and weeks to make the perfect house in pve, or the most secure one in pve, or even minecraft where you grind your ass off to make that farm you love, or that big castle that has a million blocks in it.

from an ethical standpoint i dont see it unethical, you are not obligated to participate in the game and can just ignore its existance.
just because you really love the game and annoyed by the idea that someone could pay money and shit over your progress doesnt make it unethical, it makes it annoying, which is why i hate p2w games.

people pay thousands in this game and that is their choice, people gamble thousands, people spend thousands on trips, people spend tens of thousands on watches, and if you live in a 1st world country you probably spent a couple of million dollars throughout your life on stuff that you dont even remember, doesnt make your entire life unethical because it has 0% ROI.

is it addictive? yes
is it bad that they do it intentionally? yes
can it be monetized in a better way? yes
should countries make laws against it? maybe
if i had the money to spare and no time will i play a p2w game? 100%
i would have no time and would be more than happy to pay money instead of my time to reach a high level and enjoy end game content.
who gives you the right to take away that from me?
am i not allowed to spend my money the way i want?
am i not allowed to have fun anymore because i dont have the privilege of having 10 hours daily of gaming time?
just because it is bad for you or for some, doesnt mean it’s bad for everyone.

i was playing a mobile game a while ago, had a CEO who joined the game, paid like 15~20k on his account, had all the fun he could for a few months, and then offered his account for sale for 6k, after a week on sale he got bored and gave it away to someone in our guild.

that’s someone who cant afford spending a year or two building his account, but he can afford paying for it, is he not allowed to have fun just because you cant afford it?
you dont have the privilege of having the money he has, and he doesnt have the privilege of having the time you have.

it is annoying that someone can just pay their way to your years of grinding in a f2p game, but that’s pretty much it, annoying to you.

and for the last time, the discussion isnt about the morality of p2w, it’s about the effects of rmt and in game purchases on the economy being the same, which is 100% not true.

you can argue for or against the morality of it for days, but like i said, that isnt what i responded to in my original comment.

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179

i mean if you’re keeping your post up to date might as well respond to the people who debunked your premise.

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Idk it seems like people have 0 understanding of economy.
The ingame “rmt” is still within the boundaries of the game. Gold goes from 1 player to another, still somewhat legit. And the fees are gold dumps.
The outside illegal “rmt” is getting gold into the economy that is “illegal” and not sourced properly. Thus leading to inflation cuz those few people who are rmting can afford anything for less than the normal legit whale.
→ Prices rising and legit players only way off making gold is living off inflated gold from rmters instead of farming it themselves.

181

My point was always that the p2w system - at the very least as it is - is the one that bred the current system. That is why I argued it’s bad and it needs to be overhauled at the very least. And should be the subject of everyone’s discussion as fixing the cause is better then the effect (RMT).

And it’s not about whether it’s ethical or not, it’s that it doesn’t conjure sympathy in anyone. I mean a company is obligated to seek profit so it’s really no debate here. At most it’s in regards to players, but that’s a tiring discussion to have.

And this is the key. It’s a very small step from this to rmt-ing.

Perfectly fine. I agree with your liberty to take that choice. My point is that this stops being the case when the game is dysfunctional at the best.

What I dislike and why I initially replied to you was the fact that everyone seems to have grown so accustomed to it that it is accepted as a given even when it is the biggest reason why everyone has a problem.

182

the thing is, i am not discussing solutions for rmt or cash shop.
i was simply discussing why rmt and cash shop dont have the same effect on the game’s economy, which is what the op was implying.

so dont quote me and discuss something i am not discussing please, you have 181 other comments you can quote and discuss with them.

not really, when you choose a game to play they tell you these are the rules of the games and this is how some players might have an advantage over you.
you look at the rules, you agree with them, and you play the game.
you did not agree to rmting, because the rules you agreed on affect you in a way you can control, if you grind you can make this amount of gold, and your grinding affects the market’s price, you are part of the cycle.

but for rmt you are no longer part of the cycle, instead of farming for a week or two to get the item within the cycle, now you have to farm for months because bots are being used to inject more gold into the system, because people base their selling price for items based on rmt gold prices not in game gold prices.

like i said, you want to sell a grudge book for 100$ worth of gold, that would be hypothetically 10k in game gold, but 100k in rmt gold, so the book ends up being priced at 100k or a number near it because that’s the standard everyone is using.
not only that, but you were able to hypothetically farm 10k gold in a week or two, but since there are bots that farm 24/7 they can sell items for dirt cheap, so now you need to spend more time making those 10k gold, but then you realize that on top of that the book is now worth 100k.

everyone has a problem with everything
some people hate capitalism, some hate socialism. it doesnt mean that in its core it is actually a problem, it just means that in your opinion this is a problem and considering that unlike capitalism which is a world wide economic phenomenon that you cant choose to stay away from, lost ark or any p2w games are just games and you have the choice to simply not play them.
eating a pound of tuna and liver every day will probably kill you, but that doesnt mean we should stop selling them, playing a p2w game wont even kill you and you can easily not participate in it.

you can voice your concerns over how bad it is in some games like D4 for example in hopes that one day it will change, you can even lobby to change the laws in your country to force them to not do it if you wish to, but that’s pretty much it.

but like i said for the 20th time, i am not here to argue for or against p2w as a system, which i already stated i dont like and dont participate in, i am just telling op why rmt and cash shop dont have the same effect on the economy

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183

I mean it’s fine at this point I got it. I only kept trying to say the p2w is the cause of the rmt, so the effect of the rmt can be extended to the cash shop and I can’t seem to get this point across :joy:

184

Well its kind of ur own fault … I mean p2w is bad and u can argue about the predatory systems …
But i think cheaters are worse and have no rights to complain about anything …
They abuse the systems and the players way more and make the predatory system even worse as it is.
They obviously seek all the attention also they make possible solutions like more easy gold or honing rates or better event rewards impossible.
So how can we propose sth that helps the players if its abused by the cheaters so hard that its actually harming …

185

p2w isnt the cause of rmt, it encourages it maybe but not the only or biggest reason for its existence.
even if an mmo isnt p2w by design like ESO, you still have people offering bots to level up your account for you or sell you items or gold in game for cash.

rmt is just there even if the game is 100% f2p PVE with no cash shop, people would still just pay for you to grind for them or level up their account or get in game currency.

people will always rmt and use hacks and bots whenever they can.

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Yes, however no game that I have knowledge of has ever had this level of a problem with them.
I’ll rephrase it to “the cause of rampart rmt”. I never intended to claim lost ark invented botting

187

How about we stop trying to justify your lazy ass scummy use of RMT and ruining the game

188

SunkCostFallacy

189

oh trust there is plenty, if it has mmo and korean in it’s name, or chinese and mobile game then it probably has waaaaaay more rmt and p2w aspects in it, lost ark is considered to be less abusive than other games that no matter what you do or no matter how much you grind you will never reach the highest level.

lords mobile for example it would take a f2p player 20~40 years to get t5 troops, or a couple of months and 500 bucks.
why do you think diablo immortal is a mobile game? because the amount of money you can make in that market is more than you can think of.

and botters love these games.

190

An indictment of our education systems.

191

None of those were this popular.

This game will be perfectly fine once the playerbase shrinks to low enough numbers and the demand for rmt is much lower.

And i do agree with you it is quite less abusive in that regard. I am 1460 after all with just one ark pass bought, though I did sink a considerable amount of hours in and I do my dailies like a good boy day by day.

But whenever I kill igrexion and yoho for the 10xxth time I get reminded why the gameplay loop is the way it is :joy: