yea but you cant access anything without this specyfic item?
you will be gatekeept without it?
BIS completion is endgame of the endgame 
if you get frustrated with your way to that maybe its not a problem with the game 
also maraudon? when it was ben a thing? 17 years ago? oO
How long have you had this argument in your back pocket? Anyone who farmed Blade of Eternal Darkness was something who wasnât me, so itâs kind of a redundant argument to make with me.
Edit: if youâre talking about loot in general, WoW is nothing like that right now. You also donât need to farm on 6+ characters for an entire week, only to get a bunch of fails. I saw your argument (in the general sense) all the time when LoA was new, and it never felt like a proper argument.
You can use this for any item in wow, they all average between 3-19% drop rate. The idea is you can run it over and over until you get it.
lets take this for instance 18% is still lower than your pity? only one drops per week and you need how many to clear the raid? What if it never drops? You cant even run for this on repeat. Its once and done. Loot drop systems are far more toxic. and this comes from someone who has multiple 99/100 parses. Gatekeeping if you dont have these items from speed clears are 100% a thing also @kosajk83 I used a worse case item just to prove a point. Both of you clearly fell into the trap of That didnt affect me so it wasnt a problem. However it did affect people and it was less extreme yet the same principle is there.
In my 17+ years of Wow, I have never seen a single instance of gate-keeping due to a single item.
Also, getting Drakefang Talisman is FAR more rewarding than⌠+0.77 ilvl.
See you enjoy the dopamine of getting the drop, not the upgrade itself. Further proving the point. Both forms of progression are shit, but for different reasons. The fact that you have never seen Gatekeeping based on single items only tells me you never ran for ATC or any of the Speedclears in classic. Which is fine. However, in the general sense its gatekeeping just in different forms. You still havent told me how they are different, Statistically honing is more upgrade more often. However that drop because it happens so few and weeks apart feels so much more rewarding. Essentially with emotion removed honing is far superior. The only issue is far more single player focused and casual friendly and saying that Lost Ark is more casual friendly not only hurts my heart because its true. It also means that MMOs have no future.
The problem is tho, you are comparing your power lvl in WoW with Lost Ark. In Lost Ark you have your item lvl right beside you the whole time. Once you get your hone it will stick until the end.
Not so much in WoW. There are monthly resets in form of content updates, rebalances/tweeking of classes + new expansions rendering your farmed gear useless. I prefer having a chance on uping my chestpiece than having a chance to drop an item. But thats my personal opinion.
Edit: And to add one more ting. Nothing is more infuriating then playing with suboptimal gear in WoW. You know you could acutally deal alot more damage but you are locked cause of missing one particular item. A little side story about me: I am playing currently classic servers and also played back then when phase 2 serpent shrine and tempest keep released. I never got the belt for my ret pala. I had to use other suboptimal pieces to get hit and expertise cap.
heh i though you hone that to ~20 (25 if you are hardcore or have to much $) ad then it drop down to ~10 on next âtierâ to start the fun again with a bit higher honning chances for couple levels
each day something new to learn
that comes with ups and downs
i like farming gear and its easy catch up time so win win in my book 
You literally just created your own form of logic to make this trueâŚ
Good thing modern WoW has moved past this. Kinda like I wish LoA would move past itâŚso the entire point of complaining in the first place.
Speed clears in classic are redundant for most players and are 100% player derived. They do not matter; most speed clears took longer overall due to buff gathering. Speed clears in LoA matter because of how interjoined these clears are on different characters.
Honing is infinite progression. Youâre also still comparing LoA to a VERY old version of WoW, because your argument doesnât water in retail WoW.
Youâre factoring in ONE drop, when there are many drops. If you literally only need one item, and you are playing classic for speed runs, you actually have a point. However, that situation is so incredibly niche that I donât see it as an impactful method of judging worth.
LoA does have the advantage of solo progression; itâs one reason I decided to start back after being gone for so long.
WoWâs retail M+ does lend itself to more casual gearing though, and the weekly vault is often very effective. On 3/4 of my characters, anywayâŚ
Thats right. But by that time you have accumulated enough ressources in ADVANCE. You cant do that in WoW
EDIT: For example Brel HM. 3 Months to go and my main is 1540.
EDIT2: Agree on the LFR/LFD part. Barrier of entry in LA is abysmal. WoWs is great.
thats right but i preffer to have steady progres by doing enjoyable content when it drops on 1 character for 30 mins - 3 hours a day
than
run army of alts for months doing same things over and over to acumulate mats to be able to experience next content on launch
matter of preferences i would say
WoW expansions and content patches do indeed reset progression to a degree. Power passes in LoA also do this though, as people getting boosted to where my main was 8 months ago feels super weird.
cn was arguing with classic gear as well though, and vanilla + TBC gear lasted all the way through their expansions.
I dream of a day where we get a game with progression that lasts closer to LoAâs duration, but without the shady RNG of 75% failing 4 times in a row.
I dno, I was in a server first guild in original TBC and didnât feel the need to raid in classic TBC (I still got to 70, and raided in vanilla classic as well.)
Not getting an item to drop does suck. But again, thatâs using classic variables; retail has improved upon this dramatically (not that itâs a perfect game.)
that would be actually doable
set tokens could let you chose new gear or upgrade old to current tier (etleast for expansion)
i think they may be afraid of balancing so many things at once though
Yeah raiding wise thats right. But what about the whole other things you HAVE to do if you want to play more then one character? One of the most annoying things in WoW if you did want to play an alt. You have to do the same grind aswell. Reputation? Grind again. Achievements? Grind again. And i bet there are even more of them scattered through WoW. There is no reason, why not every character share the same achievement block.
Edit: Same goes for your craftsmanship.
So you are telling me you take a lower gearscore to do +17 keys? Thats full on cap if you say you do. I used one drop to prove the point and logic and you cant find any way to refute it even with twisted logic. Wow has infinite progression as well they just hide it better, they make you wait 2 months drop a new raid then force you to run said raid and pray you get the item. If you dont and someone does more dps than you. Welp replaced. The hardest form of gatekeeping and same shit LOA fails to fix.
Retail WoW is far worse in terms of pay to win because of the WoW token. I could legitimately buy my way to achievements/gear and then run into lobbies same as LOA. Ive already said it but gear progression should never be the reason you play the game. Yes its a good way to value your own progress but people get so wrapped up in it they forget that it is just a game.
WoW allows you to hide amongst the players because you can carry a few and not detrimental to the group as a whole. LOA on the other hand well they wanted to remove bussing and in turn made the game require 80% to be alive to clear. Thats a huge flaw because that brings no room for bringing in new players to teach unless you are âNiceâ
Not to a degree. It completly resets them. Or atleast until now. Did you play BFA and Shadowlands? If not, you know there were different âborrowedâ power systems?
Ye, the progression system of Vanilla was in my opinion the best in terms of gear progression. Still you had to roll against the other 20 people or banking dkp.
Edit: I mean in the end its a way of preference. i only knew random drops until i started to play Lost Ark and if somebody would ask me which system i prefer, i would never get back to rng drops from bosses. On the other hand its more satisfieng if your gear does drop.
Well thanks for the convo. Bye.
Iâd prefer a mix. Prog that lasts through an entire expansion, but with M+ and vault. That would be difficult to do with M+ scaling, but youâd essentially just be letting players go as high as they can and get more gear by doing itâŚperhaps thatâs closer to D3 though.
i see you havent tried DF 
reputation is still farmable on alts but you get 200% boost
there always been some catchups for new ppls alts, problem was if you wanted to porogres that alts at the same time
anyhow DF resolved most of that porblems i would say
idd i would preffer to have rep account wide to some deggre, but in DF it would just make obtainig profesion recipes easier in the end and would drop prices on crafting which is not that grate imho
well not but you can do < 17 for weak or 2 and bump your ilvl and rio cause im not sure what GS is refering to in this case,
GV give items from content you do + ~7ilvls so in worst case scenario you have that
also there are affixes that make some clases more preferable so you can just use that
Please tell me you dont give up that easily. I would have liked to see the twisted logic to even see how Honing and Loot drop arent the same thing. Just wearing a different mask. Or maybe you just dont want to concede that you are wrong. I can respect that, By your desire to want a specific form of game that cant ever come into this world because it hold no monetary value. Players need to feel superior to others to continue to play. They need a way to hold something over someones head. Why do you think ELO is such an important thing to players? MMOs just arent competitive or at least shouldnt be. Yet somehow, we the players make them competitive then ruin the game for ourselves. Its quiet the issue game developers face.
so is your argument you can do it faster so its fine? You do realize that if you clear all content in a month the only thing to do is reset the gear and do it again? you know kinda like resetting your gear to +12 honing againâŚ